Socialism sucks according to Venezuelans

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Re: Socialism sucks according to Venezuelans

#76

Post by necronomous »

Biker wrote: Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:09 pm
CaptQuint wrote: Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:20 pm
Stapes wrote: Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:17 pm
CaptQuint wrote: Sat Feb 15, 2020 7:46 pm Are the free stuff crowd farmers and multi billion dollar companies?
At least GM paid back their bailout money. The big corporate farms just put it in their pockets. Not like Mom and Pop farmer got any of that money
I'm not sure Ford has yet
Did ford take bailout money?
Ford did not
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Re: Socialism sucks according to Venezuelans

#77

Post by CaptQuint »

Image
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Re: Socialism sucks according to Venezuelans

#78

Post by necronomous »

CaptQuint wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:38 am Image
Ok, but Ford did not
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Re: Socialism sucks according to Venezuelans

#79

Post by Charliesheen »

Nope. I have family who is an executive @ Ford and Mulalli(sp) saw the crash coming and borrowed a shit-ton to get Ford through. They should have had a tremendous advantage against their competitors but the swamp stepped in and bailed GM, Chrysler, and the unions out, which was a money laundering op because it kept the cash flowing into the democrat beltway.

And now Fix It Again Tony owns a (former) crown jewel of American industry.

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Re: Socialism sucks according to Venezuelans

#80

Post by CaptQuint »

Trump Should Be Asking: Will Ford Pay Off Its Government Loan Before Moving Small Car Production To Mexico?

Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump tried to score some cheap political points last week when he claimed -- falsely -- that Ford Motor F +0% plans to "fire all their employees in the United States and ... move to Mexico." Mark Fields, Ford's chief executive, wouldn't let him get away with such nonsense, though, telling CNN, "It's really unfortunate when politics get in the way of the facts."

What Ford does plan to do is shift production of small cars out of the U.S. to Mexico because it can't make a profit on them at U.S. labor rates. Nobody's getting fired. American workers instead will build higher-profit trucks and SUVs.

But here's a legitimate question Trump -- and every American -- should be asking instead: Whatever happened to the $5.9 billion taxpayer loan Ford received from the U.S. Department of Energy in the throes of the Great Recession to build fuel-efficient cars?


Ford likes to say it "didn't take the money" because unlike General Motors GM +0% and Chrysler, it didn't require a taxpayer bailout to survive the 2008-2009 credit crisis. But don't forget: Ford tapped into a different pool of government money set aside for the auto industry during those desperate times. (And those low-cost funds were critical to Ford's survival because no other funding sources were available.)

Hoping to create "thousands of green jobs" in the U.S. and reduce the nation's dependence on foreign oil, the DOE under the Bush Administration established the $25 billion loan program in 2007 to encourage development of advanced technology vehicles that would burn less fuel and, importantly, be manufactured in the U.S. Congress funded the program in 2009, after President Obama took office.



Ford applied for and received $5.9 billion in June 2009 (the same month GM filed for bankruptcy) to help pay for investments in more fuel-efficient engines, hybrids and electric cars and also to convert two truck plants to production of cars.

One of those plants, in Michigan, switched from making Ford Expeditions and Lincoln Navigators to producing fuel-efficient compact Ford Focus cars and C-Max Energi plug-in hybrids. The project, made possible by the DOE loan, cost $550 million. Now, just six years later, Ford says those small cars are moving to Mexico. Starting in 2018, the factory's 1,200 workers are expected to build Ford Ranger pickups and a next-generation Ford Bronco SUV instead.

Ford's decision is not unusual -- FiatChrysler already gave up on small car production in the U.S., and many other global automakers are building cars in Mexico as well. And Ford has been telegraphing its intentions for months, including in talks with the UAW a year ago.


But the fact that the DOE loan came with very specific strings tied to building fuel-efficient cars in the U.S. leaves some with a bad taste, given that Ford still owes the government $3.5 billion and isn't scheduled to pay it off until 2022.

But the money Ford received was to fund advanced technology projects at 12 plants in six states -- not just to produce small cars and EVs at a single plant in Wayne, Mich. For example, the funds helped pay for development of Ford's now ubiquitous EcoBoost family of engines and its use of new lightweight, high-strength aluminum in the bodies of its best-selling F-series pickups.

And just last week, Fields shared more details of Ford's plan to spend $4.5 billion on electrified vehicles by 2020, including advanced battery development and a greater focus on electric vans and other commercial vehicles. "We want to become a top player in electrified solutions, and I call it moving from a compliance mindset to one of leading where we can win such as with our commercial vehicles."

So while Ford may be shifting production of "compliance" cars like the plug-in C-Max to Mexico, it is doubling down on electrification for use in business fleets such as delivery trucks or commuter vans, which are built in the U.S.

One of the requirements to receive ATVM funding was that the project must produce a 25 percent improvement in fuel economy over 2005 levels. Ford's passenger car fleet fuel economy improved 27 percent, from 28.6 mpg to 36.4 mpg, between 2005 and 2014, the latest figures available, according to NHTSA's CAFE Public Information Center. Light truck fuel economy improved 15.7 percent, from 21.6 mpg to 25 mpg, during that period, but that doesn't reflect the improvement from Ford's aluminum F-150, which debuted at the end of 2014. For 2017, the F-150 features an improved Ecoboost engine and a new 10-speed transmission, improving the fuel economy even further. EPA-estimated figures will be released later this year.

A Ford spokeswoman noted that each individual project had to show a 25 percent improvement in fuel economy, and that fleetwide CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy) ratings are not relevant to the ATVM program. She also noted that the Michigan plant will continue building small cars and plug-in vehicles through 2018 and that Ford will pay off the loan, with interest, as required under the terms.

"As part of the loan requirements, Ford provides semiannual progress reports to the Department of Energy," said the Washingt0n-based spokeswoman, Christin Baker. "Our metrics have consistently shown that our 12 projects have exceeded the 25 percent improved fuel economy levels over 2005 levels."

The Department of Energy doesn't seem particularly concerned. "As it does with all its borrowers (the DOE) will continued to work closely with Ford to determine what impact this may have on the loan and ensure taxpayer interests are protected," an agency spokeswoman said.

Ford was one of five companies that received loans under the ATVM program in 2009, but two of them didn't work out too well. Fisker Automotive, which produced $100,000 plug-in hybrid sports cars, went bankrupt after drawing $193 million of its $529 million ATVM loan, and was later sold to a Chinese manufacturer, saddling taxpayers with a $139 million loss. Vehicle Production Group (VPG) planned to sell natural gas-powered vans for handicapped drivers, but also went bankrupt after receiving a $50 million government loan. DOE recovered just $8 million on that investment.

Nissan North America received $1.5 billion to build an advanced battery plant in Tennessee and produce the plug-in Nissan Leaf nearby. It's still paying off the loan and won't disclose the balance owed. California-based Tesla Motors TSLA +0% repaid the entire $465 million it received to build its plug-in Model S sedan and related batteries.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/joannmulle ... 0c90845e37

Fucking dupes
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Re: Socialism sucks according to Venezuelans

#81

Post by necronomous »

CaptQuint wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:40 am Trump Should Be Asking: Will Ford Pay Off Its Government Loan Before Moving Small Car Production To Mexico?

Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump tried to score some cheap political points last week when he claimed -- falsely -- that Ford Motor F +0% plans to "fire all their employees in the United States and ... move to Mexico." Mark Fields, Ford's chief executive, wouldn't let him get away with such nonsense, though, telling CNN, "It's really unfortunate when politics get in the way of the facts."

What Ford does plan to do is shift production of small cars out of the U.S. to Mexico because it can't make a profit on them at U.S. labor rates. Nobody's getting fired. American workers instead will build higher-profit trucks and SUVs.

But here's a legitimate question Trump -- and every American -- should be asking instead: Whatever happened to the $5.9 billion taxpayer loan Ford received from the U.S. Department of Energy in the throes of the Great Recession to build fuel-efficient cars?


Ford likes to say it "didn't take the money" because unlike General Motors GM +0% and Chrysler, it didn't require a taxpayer bailout to survive the 2008-2009 credit crisis. But don't forget: Ford tapped into a different pool of government money set aside for the auto industry during those desperate times. (And those low-cost funds were critical to Ford's survival because no other funding sources were available.)

Hoping to create "thousands of green jobs" in the U.S. and reduce the nation's dependence on foreign oil, the DOE under the Bush Administration established the $25 billion loan program in 2007 to encourage development of advanced technology vehicles that would burn less fuel and, importantly, be manufactured in the U.S. Congress funded the program in 2009, after President Obama took office.



Ford applied for and received $5.9 billion in June 2009 (the same month GM filed for bankruptcy) to help pay for investments in more fuel-efficient engines, hybrids and electric cars and also to convert two truck plants to production of cars.

One of those plants, in Michigan, switched from making Ford Expeditions and Lincoln Navigators to producing fuel-efficient compact Ford Focus cars and C-Max Energi plug-in hybrids. The project, made possible by the DOE loan, cost $550 million. Now, just six years later, Ford says those small cars are moving to Mexico. Starting in 2018, the factory's 1,200 workers are expected to build Ford Ranger pickups and a next-generation Ford Bronco SUV instead.

Ford's decision is not unusual -- FiatChrysler already gave up on small car production in the U.S., and many other global automakers are building cars in Mexico as well. And Ford has been telegraphing its intentions for months, including in talks with the UAW a year ago.


But the fact that the DOE loan came with very specific strings tied to building fuel-efficient cars in the U.S. leaves some with a bad taste, given that Ford still owes the government $3.5 billion and isn't scheduled to pay it off until 2022.

But the money Ford received was to fund advanced technology projects at 12 plants in six states -- not just to produce small cars and EVs at a single plant in Wayne, Mich. For example, the funds helped pay for development of Ford's now ubiquitous EcoBoost family of engines and its use of new lightweight, high-strength aluminum in the bodies of its best-selling F-series pickups.

And just last week, Fields shared more details of Ford's plan to spend $4.5 billion on electrified vehicles by 2020, including advanced battery development and a greater focus on electric vans and other commercial vehicles. "We want to become a top player in electrified solutions, and I call it moving from a compliance mindset to one of leading where we can win such as with our commercial vehicles."

So while Ford may be shifting production of "compliance" cars like the plug-in C-Max to Mexico, it is doubling down on electrification for use in business fleets such as delivery trucks or commuter vans, which are built in the U.S.

One of the requirements to receive ATVM funding was that the project must produce a 25 percent improvement in fuel economy over 2005 levels. Ford's passenger car fleet fuel economy improved 27 percent, from 28.6 mpg to 36.4 mpg, between 2005 and 2014, the latest figures available, according to NHTSA's CAFE Public Information Center. Light truck fuel economy improved 15.7 percent, from 21.6 mpg to 25 mpg, during that period, but that doesn't reflect the improvement from Ford's aluminum F-150, which debuted at the end of 2014. For 2017, the F-150 features an improved Ecoboost engine and a new 10-speed transmission, improving the fuel economy even further. EPA-estimated figures will be released later this year.

A Ford spokeswoman noted that each individual project had to show a 25 percent improvement in fuel economy, and that fleetwide CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy) ratings are not relevant to the ATVM program. She also noted that the Michigan plant will continue building small cars and plug-in vehicles through 2018 and that Ford will pay off the loan, with interest, as required under the terms.

"As part of the loan requirements, Ford provides semiannual progress reports to the Department of Energy," said the Washingt0n-based spokeswoman, Christin Baker. "Our metrics have consistently shown that our 12 projects have exceeded the 25 percent improved fuel economy levels over 2005 levels."

The Department of Energy doesn't seem particularly concerned. "As it does with all its borrowers (the DOE) will continued to work closely with Ford to determine what impact this may have on the loan and ensure taxpayer interests are protected," an agency spokeswoman said.

Ford was one of five companies that received loans under the ATVM program in 2009, but two of them didn't work out too well. Fisker Automotive, which produced $100,000 plug-in hybrid sports cars, went bankrupt after drawing $193 million of its $529 million ATVM loan, and was later sold to a Chinese manufacturer, saddling taxpayers with a $139 million loss. Vehicle Production Group (VPG) planned to sell natural gas-powered vans for handicapped drivers, but also went bankrupt after receiving a $50 million government loan. DOE recovered just $8 million on that investment.

Nissan North America received $1.5 billion to build an advanced battery plant in Tennessee and produce the plug-in Nissan Leaf nearby. It's still paying off the loan and won't disclose the balance owed. California-based Tesla Motors TSLA +0% repaid the entire $465 million it received to build its plug-in Model S sedan and related batteries.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/joannmulle ... 0c90845e37

Fucking dupes
So it didn't take the bailout money. Like I said.
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Re: Socialism sucks according to Venezuelans

#82

Post by kwebber »

Charliesheen wrote: Sat Feb 15, 2020 7:44 pm Clearly better results for the free stuff crowd, and the swamp which feeds them.
So "the free stuff crowd"? Is that what you really think social democracy is? Just about people getting free stuff? You don't think it's about a social safety net, helping people who need assistance? Do you have any empathy at all for other people, or are you an "every man for himself, and fuck you if you can't do it for yourself" type person? Human empathy, it's an interesting ideology.
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Re: Socialism sucks according to Venezuelans

#83

Post by AnalHamster »

Ford took bailout loans it is planning to repay by 2022.
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Re: Socialism sucks according to Venezuelans

#84

Post by necronomous »

kwebber wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:07 am
Charliesheen wrote: Sat Feb 15, 2020 7:44 pm Clearly better results for the free stuff crowd, and the swamp which feeds them.
So "the free stuff crowd"? Is that what you really think social democracy is? Just about people getting free stuff? You don't think it's about a social safety net, helping people who need assistance? Do you have any empathy at all for other people, or are you an "every man for himself, and fuck you if you can't do it for yourself" type person? Human empathy, it's an interesting ideology.
I think here is where the disconnect is. One side thinks there is very few people that need help and they are just gaming the system. The other side thinks very few are gaming the system, and most people honestly need the help.

The funny part is, the side that assumes few are gaming the system, are usually the ones that cry about how horrible humans are in general, yet somehow very few are willing to game the system. It makes no sense. They also believe the other side doesn't want to help those who truly need it, which is just stupid.

Human naivety is also an interesting ideology.
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Re: Socialism sucks according to Venezuelans

#85

Post by necronomous »

AnalHamster wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:25 am Ford took bailout loans it is planning to repay by 2022, and obviously you guys are talking about the "bailout" that was all over the news, but we are going to totally act like we don't know what you guys are actually referring to so we can sound smarter, but we know we aren't, which is why we do this nitpicking bullshit.
I hear you.
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Re: Socialism sucks according to Venezuelans

#86

Post by AnalHamster »

You're trying to argue taking government loans under one program is a bailout but taking government loans at the same time under a different program is not a bailout, and you think I'm the one nitpicking? :lol:

Grow up kiddo.
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Re: Socialism sucks according to Venezuelans

#87

Post by CaptQuint »

Biker wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 4:43 pm Bailout money is far different than govt loans
Bailout money is a government loan, except for the farmer bailout. That was a straight free money for nothing scheme
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Re: Socialism sucks according to Venezuelans

#88

Post by CaptQuint »

Biker wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 4:50 pm
CaptQuint wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 4:49 pm
Biker wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 4:43 pm Bailout money is far different than govt loans
Bailout money is a government loan, except for the farmer bailout. That was a straight free money for nothing scheme
The bailout money came with numerous conditions, such as concessions to unions and a move towards more fuel efficient vehicles. A loan is just a loan
Funny, Fords loan had requirements to upgrade factories and build more fuel efficient vehicles. These requirements came from The Department of energy who lent the money
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Re: Socialism sucks according to Venezuelans

#89

Post by CaptQuint »

Biker wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:04 pm Ford was proactive in their approach, recognizing that there is a need for more modern facilities. The bailout money was because GM was fucked in the ass and came crawling
So it was a bailout, even according to your definition?
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Re: Socialism sucks according to Venezuelans

#90

Post by necronomous »

AnalHamster wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:41 pm You're trying to argue taking government loans under one program is a bailout but taking government loans at the same time under a different program is not a bailout, and you think I'm the one nitpicking? :lol:

Grow up kiddo.
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Re: Socialism sucks according to Venezuelans

#91

Post by necronomous »

CaptQuint wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:00 pm
Biker wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 4:50 pm
CaptQuint wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 4:49 pm
Biker wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 4:43 pm Bailout money is far different than govt loans
Bailout money is a government loan, except for the farmer bailout. That was a straight free money for nothing scheme
The bailout money came with numerous conditions, such as concessions to unions and a move towards more fuel efficient vehicles. A loan is just a loan
Funny, Fords loan had requirements to upgrade factories and build more fuel efficient vehicles. These requirements came from The Department of energy who lent the money
So a loan with stipulations. Wow, New concept.
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Re: Socialism sucks according to Venezuelans

#92

Post by kwebber »

necronomous wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:06 pm
kwebber wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:07 am
Charliesheen wrote: Sat Feb 15, 2020 7:44 pm Clearly better results for the free stuff crowd, and the swamp which feeds them.
So "the free stuff crowd"? Is that what you really think social democracy is? Just about people getting free stuff? You don't think it's about a social safety net, helping people who need assistance? Do you have any empathy at all for other people, or are you an "every man for himself, and fuck you if you can't do it for yourself" type person? Human empathy, it's an interesting ideology.
I think here is where the disconnect is. One side thinks there is very few people that need help and they are just gaming the system. The other side thinks very few are gaming the system, and most people honestly need the help.

The funny part is, the side that assumes few are gaming the system, are usually the ones that cry about how horrible humans are in general, yet somehow very few are willing to game the system. It makes no sense. They also believe the other side doesn't want to help those who truly need it, which is just stupid.

Human naivety is also an interesting ideology.
No one is under the assumption that every person in the world is a good person. Yeah, there are some people who will take advantage of any system irregardless of what it is. Those people taking advantage of a system designed to help those who really need it, are the risks of making sure everyone has that basic social safety net. If making sure that people are able to have basic human needs is naive to you, then so be it.
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Re: Socialism sucks according to Venezuelans

#93

Post by AnalHamster »

Biker wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 4:50 pm
CaptQuint wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 4:49 pm
Biker wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 4:43 pm Bailout money is far different than govt loans
Bailout money is a government loan, except for the farmer bailout. That was a straight free money for nothing scheme
The bailout money came with numerous conditions, such as concessions to unions and a move towards more fuel efficient vehicles. A loan is just a loan
Way to kick your own ass :lol:
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Re: Socialism sucks according to Venezuelans

#94

Post by necronomous »

kwebber wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 7:50 pm
necronomous wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:06 pm
kwebber wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:07 am
Charliesheen wrote: Sat Feb 15, 2020 7:44 pm Clearly better results for the free stuff crowd, and the swamp which feeds them.
So "the free stuff crowd"? Is that what you really think social democracy is? Just about people getting free stuff? You don't think it's about a social safety net, helping people who need assistance? Do you have any empathy at all for other people, or are you an "every man for himself, and fuck you if you can't do it for yourself" type person? Human empathy, it's an interesting ideology.
I think here is where the disconnect is. One side thinks there is very few people that need help and they are just gaming the system. The other side thinks very few are gaming the system, and most people honestly need the help.

The funny part is, the side that assumes few are gaming the system, are usually the ones that cry about how horrible humans are in general, yet somehow very few are willing to game the system. It makes no sense. They also believe the other side doesn't want to help those who truly need it, which is just stupid.

Human naivety is also an interesting ideology.
No one is under the assumption that every person in the world is a good person. Yeah, there are some people who will take advantage of any system irregardless of what it is. Those people taking advantage of a system designed to help those who really need it, are the risks of making sure everyone has that basic social safety net. If making sure that people are able to have basic human needs is naive to you, then so be it.
I think you're not, I think most liberals do. And as soon as you show that you're not willing to put up a fight against that fraud, the more people be willing to commit the fraud. That isn't what I said people were naive about. And no I disagree with you on that
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Re: Socialism sucks according to Venezuelans

#95

Post by necronomous »

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Re: Socialism sucks according to Venezuelans

#96

Post by AnalHamster »

More misleading bullshit for the gullible there. The UK does not ban private insurance, our 'copay' as I have mentioned many times is £8.30 for a prescription drug, whether that drug costs a fiver or a hundred thousand, with exemptions for the unemployed, underage, students and OAPs.

Only relentless misinformation and gullibility allows the fact denying world view that every other developed nation doesn't do this better, more efficiently and far, far cheaper. It's just denial of reality to claim otherwise. You don't need to have the most expensive healthcare system in the world, you don't need to drive half a million people into bankruptcy each year because of it, you don't need to leave millions uninsured, these are choices driven by misinformation and lobbying.
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Re: Socialism sucks according to Venezuelans

#97

Post by necronomous »

AnalHamster wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 12:05 pm More misleading bullshit for the gullible there. The UK does not ban private insurance, our 'copay' as I have mentioned many times is £8.30 for a prescription drug, whether that drug costs a fiver or a hundred thousand, with exemptions for the unemployed, underage, students and OAPs.

Only relentless misinformation and gullibility allows the fact denying world view that every other developed nation doesn't do this better, more efficiently and far, far cheaper. It's just denial of reality to claim otherwise. You don't need to have the most expensive healthcare system in the world, you don't need to drive half a million people into bankruptcy each year because of it, you don't need to leave millions uninsured, these are choices driven by misinformation and lobbying.
Right
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Re: Socialism sucks according to Venezuelans

#98

Post by Stapes »

necronomous wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 12:40 pm
AnalHamster wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 12:05 pm More misleading bullshit for the gullible there. The UK does not ban private insurance, our 'copay' as I have mentioned many times is £8.30 for a prescription drug, whether that drug costs a fiver or a hundred thousand, with exemptions for the unemployed, underage, students and OAPs.

Only relentless misinformation and gullibility allows the fact denying world view that every other developed nation doesn't do this better, more efficiently and far, far cheaper. It's just denial of reality to claim otherwise. You don't need to have the most expensive healthcare system in the world, you don't need to drive half a million people into bankruptcy each year because of it, you don't need to leave millions uninsured, these are choices driven by misinformation and lobbying.
Right
Why are you such an ignorant asshole?
I blame Biker.
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Re: Socialism sucks according to Venezuelans

#99

Post by necronomous »

Stapes wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 2:29 pm
necronomous wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 12:40 pm
AnalHamster wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 12:05 pm More misleading bullshit for the gullible there. The UK does not ban private insurance, our 'copay' as I have mentioned many times is £8.30 for a prescription drug, whether that drug costs a fiver or a hundred thousand, with exemptions for the unemployed, underage, students and OAPs.

Only relentless misinformation and gullibility allows the fact denying world view that every other developed nation doesn't do this better, more efficiently and far, far cheaper. It's just denial of reality to claim otherwise. You don't need to have the most expensive healthcare system in the world, you don't need to drive half a million people into bankruptcy each year because of it, you don't need to leave millions uninsured, these are choices driven by misinformation and lobbying.
Right
Why are you such an ignorant asshole?
Lol
Ok
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Re: Socialism sucks according to Venezuelans

#100

Post by CaptQuint »

Biker wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 6:12 pm
CaptQuint wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:08 pm
Biker wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:04 pm Ford was proactive in their approach, recognizing that there is a need for more modern facilities. The bailout money was because GM was fucked in the ass and came crawling
So it was a bailout, even according to your definition?
No, it was to raise capital for modernizing their facilities. You know, like most corporations do
Um, a capital raise from the government like GM's? I know you're not feeling well but c'mon dude
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