I guess White small business owners don't matter

[CHEEZY17]

I think we can all agree that using all legitimate distribution avenues would be beneficial.

[spudoc]

Highly suspect because you guys don't agree with the results? They have multiple years of tests (basically mystery shoppers) and data to back up their positions. You guys have a bunch thoughts.

Multiple years of "Testers were only used if their voice was perceived to be racially identifiable above 70%." and "We selected profile names after researching names most often perceived with a particular race."

Odds are high they went out of their way to not sound 'black' --> but to sound "street".

As a lender, you want to lend to those you feel will be able to pay the debt back.

So, be honest, if you were a bank and you had to choose between the guy who sounds like a business owner and a guy who sounds like he's gangster, who would you choose to lend tens of thousands of dollars to? Same is true for a business owner verse some Appalachian hillbilly named Cleetus. One will get preferential treatment based on the assumption of their ability to manage and repay the debt.

And before you cry "racist" realize its not about "sounding/acting white", its about sounding/acting professional. A difference people who like making broad sweeping claims of systematic institutional racism often swept under the rug.

You realize that sounding/acting professional is a societal (and yes racial) construct right?

[spudoc]

I think we can all agree that using all legitimate distribution avenues would be beneficial.

Yes. And also make it as equitable as possible

[Animal]

Highly suspect because you guys don't agree with the results? They have multiple years of tests (basically mystery shoppers) and data to back up their positions. You guys have a bunch thoughts.

Well, if you really read the study, their major finding was that 43% of the "testers" were racially profiled in the various instruments they were offered by the banks.

Now, keep in mind, this was a test to see if getting a PPP loan was in some way racially discriminated by the banks. To prove out this 43% number, they found that 43% of the testers were, IN ADDITION TO THE PPP LOAN INFORMATION, also instructed that they could look into a home equity loan.

So, for those black voices they heard, 43% of the times the banks mentioned they had other options besides only a PPP loan, and one of them was a home equity loan.

For the other testers that had white voices, IN ADDITION TO THE PPP LOAN, they were instructed about other options that included small business loans (I think that was it).

So, while that could be a point that banks racially profile a voice to determine what other options were available, it DID NOT effect their getting information or help on the PPP loan. Which was supposedly the entire point of the testers and the study. That point wasn't made in their summary findings. only the points that reinforce their initial expectation were summarized.

There is going to be a whole shit load of work to do if we are going to transform the human race into not having salesmen that attempt to target their products at what they "think" is going to be the best for the customer they are looking at.

[Burn1dwn]

Highly suspect because you guys don't agree with the results? They have multiple years of tests (basically mystery shoppers) and data to back up their positions. You guys have a bunch thoughts.

Well, if you really read the study, their major finding was that 43% of the "testers" were racially profiled in the various instruments they were offered by the banks.

Now, keep in mind, this was a test to see if getting a PPP loan was in some way racially discriminated by the banks. To prove out this 43% number, they found that 43% of the testers were, IN ADDITION TO THE PPP LOAN INFORMATION, also instructed that they could look into a home equity loan.

So, for those black voices they heard, 43% of the times the banks mentioned they had other options besides only a PPP loan, and one of them was a home equity loan.

For the other testers that had white voices, IN ADDITION TO THE PPP LOAN, they were instructed about other options that included small business loans (I think that was it).

So, while that could be a point that banks racially profile a voice to determine what other options were available, it DID NOT effect their getting information or help on the PPP loan. Which was supposedly the entire point of the testers and the study. That point wasn't made in their summary findings. only the points that reinforce their initial expectation were summarized.

There is going to be a whole shit load of work to do if we are going to transform the human race into not having salesmen that attempt to target their products at what they "think" is going to be the best for the customer they are looking at.

GOOD MORNING CLASS- You guys are on the right track by actually clicking links and reading. Don't worry this is an open book test. As soon as Cass, Acknot (sorry doesn't seem right to call you Ack for some weird reason), Necro join us we can talk about what you guys are choosing to ignore ort maybe not understanding. Looks like Cheezy's finally catching on. Maybe he can take the day off.

Flumper, while you are waiting if I was you I would go look at how the African Americans dressed identical as the White control testers with superior loan applications, were treated differently in the same banks often by the same loan officer. Some pretty glaring differences in there.

I am going to go grab a redbull.

[Burn1dwn]

There is going to be a whole shit load of work to do if we are going to transform the human race into not having salesmen that attempt to target their products at what they "think" is going to be the best for the customer they are looking at.

Do you understand what redlining is?

[Animal]

There is going to be a whole shit load of work to do if we are going to transform the human race into not having salesmen that attempt to target their products at what they "think" is going to be the best for the customer they are looking at.

Do you understand what redlining is?

fuck, i get that kind of shit all of the time. i will be in really faded wranglers, old boots, a camo wrangler shirt and go in to buy something really expensive. i get the looks. i couldn't give a fuck about that.

I understand salesmen, waitresses, etc have to do a certain amount of profiling in their assessment of a person in order to increase their odds at making some money in a short period of time. its human nature. If I really want to combat it, I dress up nicer and present myself differently and get a different response. I don't view it as me needing to re-educate the salesman when I'm perfectly capable of doing my part to change the dynamic.

[Burn1dwn]

There is going to be a whole shit load of work to do if we are going to transform the human race into not having salesmen that attempt to target their products at what they "think" is going to be the best for the customer they are looking at.

Do you understand what redlining is?

fuck, i get that kind of shit all of the time. i will be in really faded wranglers, old boots, a camo wrangler shirt and go in to buy something really expensive. i get the looks. i couldn't give a fuck about that.

I understand salesmen, waitresses, etc have to do a certain amount of profiling in their assessment of a person in order to increase their odds at making some money in a short period of time. its human nature. If I really want to combat it, I dress up nicer and present myself differently and get a different response. I don't view it as me needing to re-educate the salesman when I'm perfectly capable of doing my part to change the dynamic.

I am in sales and understand not to judge a book by it's cover. I am sure you love proving them wrong.

I try to treat every client I serve the same way and furthermore I operate under similar rules/laws that supposedly make the PPP non discriminatory. Difference is the government doesn't track the demographics on business loans like they do consumer loans. Do you think that helps or hurts making sure banks comply with the non-discriminatory rules and laws? Maybe they should start tracking them.

I have a feeling if they did, you would think they are doing it to give the Black/Brown people extra benefits. When in reality the question is asked to make sure they are getting the same.

[Animal]

There is going to be a whole shit load of work to do if we are going to transform the human race into not having salesmen that attempt to target their products at what they "think" is going to be the best for the customer they are looking at.

Do you understand what redlining is?

fuck, i get that kind of shit all of the time. i will be in really faded wranglers, old boots, a camo wrangler shirt and go in to buy something really expensive. i get the looks. i couldn't give a fuck about that.

I understand salesmen, waitresses, etc have to do a certain amount of profiling in their assessment of a person in order to increase their odds at making some money in a short period of time. its human nature. If I really want to combat it, I dress up nicer and present myself differently and get a different response. I don't view it as me needing to re-educate the salesman when I'm perfectly capable of doing my part to change the dynamic.

I am in sales and understand not to judge a book by it's cover. I am sure you love proving them wrong.

I try to treat every client I serve the same way and furthermore I operate under similar rules/laws that supposedly make the PPP non discriminatory. Difference is the government doesn't track the demographics on business loans like they do consumer loans. Do you think that helps or hurts making sure banks comply with the non-discriminatory rules and laws? Maybe they should start tracking them.

I have a feeling if they did, you would think they are doing it to give the Black/Brown people extra benefits. When in reality the question is asked to make sure they are getting the same.

I filled out a covid vaccine registration yesterday for someone. On the online form it asked "Race". I thought to myself, "WTF? Why would they care what race a person is?" But I checked the appropriate box. Then they also asked, "Ethnicity". I think the choices were "Hispanic or Non-Hispanic". Those were the only two choices.

Now, I have no idea why they ask that, it seems pretty bizarre to me, since we live in this country that is so worried about perceived racism that we would force a person to check a box to describe their race. I guess they ask it so these big department of minority review agencies can prepare studies and findings and brochures and budget increases etc.

I know I spend a shit load of time filling out things, documenting things, preparing submittals, making phone calls, mailing out bid invitations, just to appease these minority review boards that exist to make sure I don't discriminate. Meanwhile every employee I have and almost every subcontractor I use are minorities.

[Burn1dwn]

There is going to be a whole shit load of work to do if we are going to transform the human race into not having salesmen that attempt to target their products at what they "think" is going to be the best for the customer they are looking at.

Do you understand what redlining is?

fuck, i get that kind of shit all of the time. i will be in really faded wranglers, old boots, a camo wrangler shirt and go in to buy something really expensive. i get the looks. i couldn't give a fuck about that.

I understand salesmen, waitresses, etc have to do a certain amount of profiling in their assessment of a person in order to increase their odds at making some money in a short period of time. its human nature. If I really want to combat it, I dress up nicer and present myself differently and get a different response. I don't view it as me needing to re-educate the salesman when I'm perfectly capable of doing my part to change the dynamic.

I am in sales and understand not to judge a book by it's cover. I am sure you love proving them wrong.

I try to treat every client I serve the same way and furthermore I operate under similar rules/laws that supposedly make the PPP non discriminatory. Difference is the government doesn't track the demographics on business loans like they do consumer loans. Do you think that helps or hurts making sure banks comply with the non-discriminatory rules and laws? Maybe they should start tracking them.

I have a feeling if they did, you would think they are doing it to give the Black/Brown people extra benefits. When in reality the question is asked to make sure they are getting the same.

I filled out a covid vaccine registration yesterday for someone. On the online form it asked "Race". I thought to myself, "WTF? Why would they care what race a person is?" But I checked the appropriate box. Then they also asked, "Ethnicity". I think the choices were "Hispanic or Non-Hispanic". Those were the only two choices.

Now, I have no idea why they ask that, it seems pretty bizarre to me, since we live in this country that is so worried about perceived racism that we would force a person to check a box to describe their race. I guess they ask it so these big department of minority review agencies can prepare studies and findings and brochures and budget increases etc.

I know I spend a shit load of time filling out things, documenting things, preparing submittals, making phone calls, mailing out bid invitations, just to appease these minority review boards that exist to make sure I don't discriminate. Meanwhile every employee I have and almost every subcontractor I use are minorities.

I think you just have to realize it is the only way to track that kind of thing. Unfortunately we were born in a country that had a racist system that wasn't completely outlawed until a little more than 56 years ago. Maybe sometime in the future it will be unnecessary to ask the question and track it. But that will never happen if you guys don't even understand what the problem is.

[Animal]

I think you just have to realize it is the only way to track that kind of thing. Unfortunately we were born in a country that had a racist system that wasn't completely outlawed until a little more than 56 years ago. Maybe sometime in the future it will be unnecessary to ask the question and track it. But that will never happen if you guys don't even understand what the problem is.

in my world problems are addressed one at a time. You specifically locate a single problem and you fix it. If you continue to do this enough you solve the problem from recurring. You don't solve the problem by putting out memos or guidelines or having meetings or creating programs. And you damn sure don't solve it by tracking every mother fucking thing you do in order to track that one single event. All that stuff does it take away from every other thing you are getting done and fucks up the whole system.

[Animal]

I think you just have to realize it is the only way to track that kind of thing. Unfortunately we were born in a country that had a racist system that wasn't completely outlawed until a little more than 56 years ago. Maybe sometime in the future it will be unnecessary to ask the question and track it. But that will never happen if you guys don't even understand what the problem is.

in my world problems are addressed one at a time. You specifically locate a single problem and you fix it. If you continue to do this enough you solve the problem from recurring. You don't solve the problem by putting out memos or guidelines or having meetings or creating programs. And you damn sure don't solve it by tracking every mother fucking thing you do in order to track that one single event. All that stuff does it take away from every other thing you are getting done and fucks up the whole system.

and because of your persistence you actually did isolate a single problem that should be fixed. Dealing with other methods of banking that don't involve banks (like most of us think of them) and how that plays into the way the PPP loans were distributed. That was a good contribution to the discussion and one that can and should be acted on with some results.

[Burn1dwn]

I think you just have to realize it is the only way to track that kind of thing. Unfortunately we were born in a country that had a racist system that wasn't completely outlawed until a little more than 56 years ago. Maybe sometime in the future it will be unnecessary to ask the question and track it. But that will never happen if you guys don't even understand what the problem is.

in my world problems are addressed one at a time. You specifically locate a single problem and you fix it. If you continue to do this enough you solve the problem from recurring. You don't solve the problem by putting out memos or guidelines or having meetings or creating programs. And you damn sure don't solve it by tracking every mother fucking thing you do in order to track that one single event. All that stuff does it take away from every other thing you are getting done and fucks up the whole system.

That's great but how do you identify your problems? Do you think that other industries might need different info to identify problems?

[Burn1dwn]

I think you just have to realize it is the only way to track that kind of thing. Unfortunately we were born in a country that had a racist system that wasn't completely outlawed until a little more than 56 years ago. Maybe sometime in the future it will be unnecessary to ask the question and track it. But that will never happen if you guys don't even understand what the problem is.

in my world problems are addressed one at a time. You specifically locate a single problem and you fix it. If you continue to do this enough you solve the problem from recurring. You don't solve the problem by putting out memos or guidelines or having meetings or creating programs. And you damn sure don't solve it by tracking every mother fucking thing you do in order to track that one single event. All that stuff does it take away from every other thing you are getting done and fucks up the whole system.

and because of your persistence you actually did isolate a single problem that should be fixed. Dealing with other methods of banking that don't involve banks (like most of us think of them) and how that plays into the way the PPP loans were distributed. That was a good contribution to the discussion and one that can and should be acted on with some results.

For sure. They did start to correct the problem towards the end of the program. That is what I think Biden heard when he made his stupid dividing statement.

[Animal]

I think you just have to realize it is the only way to track that kind of thing. Unfortunately we were born in a country that had a racist system that wasn't completely outlawed until a little more than 56 years ago. Maybe sometime in the future it will be unnecessary to ask the question and track it. But that will never happen if you guys don't even understand what the problem is.

in my world problems are addressed one at a time. You specifically locate a single problem and you fix it. If you continue to do this enough you solve the problem from recurring. You don't solve the problem by putting out memos or guidelines or having meetings or creating programs. And you damn sure don't solve it by tracking every mother fucking thing you do in order to track that one single event. All that stuff does it take away from every other thing you are getting done and fucks up the whole system.

That's great but how do you identify your problems? Do you think that other industries might need different info to identify problems?

Let's just say this. And we are talking about "in my world". If a problem isn't known about, then it isn't a problem. So I don't have to identify them. They have ways of identifying themselves.

In this conversation, you identified the problem.

[Burn1dwn]

I think you just have to realize it is the only way to track that kind of thing. Unfortunately we were born in a country that had a racist system that wasn't completely outlawed until a little more than 56 years ago. Maybe sometime in the future it will be unnecessary to ask the question and track it. But that will never happen if you guys don't even understand what the problem is.

in my world problems are addressed one at a time. You specifically locate a single problem and you fix it. If you continue to do this enough you solve the problem from recurring. You don't solve the problem by putting out memos or guidelines or having meetings or creating programs. And you damn sure don't solve it by tracking every mother fucking thing you do in order to track that one single event. All that stuff does it take away from every other thing you are getting done and fucks up the whole system.

That's great but how do you identify your problems? Do you think that other industries might need different info to identify problems?

Let's just say this. And we are talking about "in my world". If a problem isn't known about, then it isn't a problem. So I don't have to identify them. They have ways of identifying themselves.

In this conversation, you identified the problem.

Ok, I will take that. Good Talk.

[CHEEZY17]

Looks like Cheezy's finally catching on. Maybe he can take the day off.

If you mean that I agree that the rollout was not as effective as it could have/should have been and that other avenues of distribution also should have been utilized...then yes. Helping more people is a good thing.

If you mean "catching on" to using race as a qualifier for the prioritization of help then thats still a hard no.

[spudoc]

Looks like Cheezy's finally catching on. Maybe he can take the day off.

If you mean that I agree that the rollout was not as effective as it could have/should have been and that other avenues of distribution also should have been utilized...then yes. Helping more people is a good thing.

If you mean "catching on" to using race as a qualifier for the prioritization of help then thats still a hard no.

Are you saying that if it is demonstrable that minority business owners were systematically put at the back of the line the first go around you oppose them being put at the front of the line for the second effort?

[CaptQuint]

[Cassandros]

Highly suspect because you guys don't agree with the results? They have multiple years of tests (basically mystery shoppers) and data to back up their positions. You guys have a bunch thoughts.

Multiple years of "Testers were only used if their voice was perceived to be racially identifiable above 70%." and "We selected profile names after researching names most often perceived with a particular race."

Odds are high they went out of their way to not sound 'black' --> but to sound "street".

As a lender, you want to lend to those you feel will be able to pay the debt back.

So, be honest, if you were a bank and you had to choose between the guy who sounds like a business owner and a guy who sounds like he's gangster, who would you choose to lend tens of thousands of dollars to? Same is true for a business owner verse some Appalachian hillbilly named Cleetus. One will get preferential treatment based on the assumption of their ability to manage and repay the debt.

And before you cry "racist" realize its not about "sounding/acting white", its about sounding/acting professional. A difference people who like making broad sweeping claims of systematic institutional racism often swept under the rug.

You realize that sounding/acting professional is a societal (and yes racial) construct right?

As much as sounding gangsta and partaking in the ghetto culture is.

If you want to be part of the business culture, act the part.

[Burn1dwn]

Highly suspect because you guys don't agree with the results? They have multiple years of tests (basically mystery shoppers) and data to back up their positions. You guys have a bunch thoughts.

Multiple years of "Testers were only used if their voice was perceived to be racially identifiable above 70%." and "We selected profile names after researching names most often perceived with a particular race."

Odds are high they went out of their way to not sound 'black' --> but to sound "street".

As a lender, you want to lend to those you feel will be able to pay the debt back.

So, be honest, if you were a bank and you had to choose between the guy who sounds like a business owner and a guy who sounds like he's gangster, who would you choose to lend tens of thousands of dollars to? Same is true for a business owner verse some Appalachian hillbilly named Cleetus. One will get preferential treatment based on the assumption of their ability to manage and repay the debt.

And before you cry "racist" realize its not about "sounding/acting white", its about sounding/acting professional. A difference people who like making broad sweeping claims of systematic institutional racism often swept under the rug.

You realize that sounding/acting professional is a societal (and yes racial) construct right?

As much as sounding gangsta and partaking in the ghetto culture is.

If you want to be part of the business culture, act the part.

They dressed the "testers" like Carlton in Khakis and nice shirts. I doubt they let them talk gangsta. Look back at the 2017 and 2019 studies that had nothing to do with ppp. They were in person visits.

[Cassandros]

Highly suspect because you guys don't agree with the results? They have multiple years of tests (basically mystery shoppers) and data to back up their positions. You guys have a bunch thoughts.

Multiple years of "Testers were only used if their voice was perceived to be racially identifiable above 70%." and "We selected profile names after researching names most often perceived with a particular race."

Odds are high they went out of their way to not sound 'black' --> but to sound "street".

As a lender, you want to lend to those you feel will be able to pay the debt back.

So, be honest, if you were a bank and you had to choose between the guy who sounds like a business owner and a guy who sounds like he's gangster, who would you choose to lend tens of thousands of dollars to? Same is true for a business owner verse some Appalachian hillbilly named Cleetus. One will get preferential treatment based on the assumption of their ability to manage and repay the debt.

And before you cry "racist" realize its not about "sounding/acting white", its about sounding/acting professional. A difference people who like making broad sweeping claims of systematic institutional racism often swept under the rug.

You realize that sounding/acting professional is a societal (and yes racial) construct right?

As much as sounding gangsta and partaking in the ghetto culture is.

If you want to be part of the business culture, act the part.

They dressed the "testers" like Carlton in Khakis and nice shirts. I doubt they let them talk gangsta. Look back at the 2017 and 2019 studies that had nothing to do with ppp. They were in person visits.

You don't know that. What we do know is they went out of their way to "sound black".

How does one sound black, exactly?

We both know the answer. And it has nothing to do with tone or pitch.

[Animal]

How does one sound black, exactly?

I would recommend watching old episodes of Sanford and Son.

[Burn1dwn]

Here is how you sound black and awesome.

[Cassandros]

Precisely.