Bad day for Boeing

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AnalHamster
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Bad day for Boeing

#1

Post by AnalHamster » Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:01 pm

No investigation results yet, but the circumstances appear to be identical to the Lion Air flight taken down by their new safety system. Seems like an odd engineering choice to me, you have the option of either sounding a little buzzer and having a robot voice say 'lower the nose fucktard', or putting in a system that will force the plane into a sudden dive and keep actively fighting the pilots until they either follow a long complicated series of steps while fighting the plane, or die.

I'm staying the fuck clear of their Max 8 model. Airbus ftw.

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CaptQuint
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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#2

Post by CaptQuint » Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:07 pm

I always said if it's not boeing, I'm not going. Might have to rethink that one.


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VinceBordenIII
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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#3

Post by VinceBordenIII » Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:52 pm

Couple of times I've been on a flight when they told us it was a brand new plane. I prefer a plane with some hours on it.
Last edited by VinceBordenIII on Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Biker
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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#4

Post by Biker » Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:53 pm

Worse day for airlines that rely on the 737 MAX

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AnalHamster
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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#5

Post by AnalHamster » Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:37 pm

VinceBordenIII wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:52 pm
Couple of times I've been on a flight when they told us it was a brand new plane. I prefer a plane with some hours on it.
I'd say it's not the new planes you need to be wary of so much as the new models. Even with boeing's Auto Kamikaze (TM) system there are hundreds of these planes in service and they must have made tens of thousands of flights without problems. I'd take a brand new plane of a time tested proven design rather than one with some miles on it that was in the first wave of a new design.

Still, they're easily going to weather it. Probably a good time to buy boeing coming up, between when they admit the Auto Kamikaze (TM) got another one and when they announce they have a retrofit to fix it, which I'd assume is just a programming change.

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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#6

Post by CaptQuint » Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:43 pm

analhamster wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:37 pm
VinceBordenIII wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:52 pm
Couple of times I've been on a flight when they told us it was a brand new plane. I prefer a plane with some hours on it.
I'd say it's not the new planes you need to be wary of so much as the new models. Even with boeing's Auto Kamikaze (TM) system there are hundreds of these planes in service and they must have made tens of thousands of flights without problems. I'd take a brand new plane of a time tested proven design rather than one with some miles on it that was in the first wave of a new design.

Still, they're easily going to weather it. Probably a good time to buy boeing coming up, between when they admit the Auto Kamikaze (TM) got another one and when they announce they have a retrofit to fix it, which I'd assume is just a programming change.
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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#7

Post by Stapes » Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:51 pm

I always have a fleeting thought just before take off. This is where I die.
Not in the a.m. bro.

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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#8

Post by CHEEZY17 » Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:22 pm

Stapes wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:51 pm
I always have a fleeting thought just before take off. This is where I die.
Yep, same here.
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Biker
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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#9

Post by Biker » Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:35 pm

Pilot training is the key. The EA first officer only had 300 hours

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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#10

Post by CaptQuint » Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:39 pm

Pilot training doesn't help if Boeing doesn't tell pilots there is a kamikaze mode
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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#11

Post by AnalHamster » Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:47 pm

The pilot had 8000 hours, but it's probably a little tricky to run a multipoint checklist with alarms blaring whilst fighting the aircraft which is overriding your inputs in a determined attempt to dive nose first into the ground.

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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#12

Post by Biker » Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:52 pm

analhamster wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:47 pm
The pilot had 8000 hours, but it's probably a little tricky to run a multipoint checklist with alarms blaring whilst fighting the aircraft which is overriding your inputs in a determined attempt to dive nose first into the ground.
Pilot isn’t the first officer

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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#13

Post by CaptQuint » Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:54 pm

Biker wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:52 pm
analhamster wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:47 pm
The pilot had 8000 hours, but it's probably a little tricky to run a multipoint checklist with alarms blaring whilst fighting the aircraft which is overriding your inputs in a determined attempt to dive nose first into the ground.
Pilot isn’t the first officer
The First Officer is literally second in command to The Captain
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#14

Post by AnalHamster » Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:54 pm

Biker wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:52 pm
analhamster wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:47 pm
The pilot had 8000 hours, but it's probably a little tricky to run a multipoint checklist with alarms blaring whilst fighting the aircraft which is overriding your inputs in a determined attempt to dive nose first into the ground.
Pilot isn’t the first officer
You should alert the crash investigators to this staggering new insight you have come up with immediately. What point do you think you're making?

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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#15

Post by Biker » Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:11 pm

captquint wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:54 pm
Biker wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:52 pm
analhamster wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:47 pm
The pilot had 8000 hours, but it's probably a little tricky to run a multipoint checklist with alarms blaring whilst fighting the aircraft which is overriding your inputs in a determined attempt to dive nose first into the ground.
Pilot isn’t the first officer
The First Officer is literally second in command to The Captain
No shit.

You should ask Sully how important the first officer is

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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#16

Post by Biker » Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:12 pm

analhamster wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:54 pm
Biker wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:52 pm
analhamster wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:47 pm
The pilot had 8000 hours, but it's probably a little tricky to run a multipoint checklist with alarms blaring whilst fighting the aircraft which is overriding your inputs in a determined attempt to dive nose first into the ground.
Pilot isn’t the first officer
You should alert the crash investigators to this staggering new insight you have come up with immediately. What point do you think you're making?
Captains rely on the FO and his/her experience

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AnalHamster
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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#17

Post by AnalHamster » Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:15 pm

Biker wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:11 pm
captquint wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:54 pm
Biker wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:52 pm
analhamster wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:47 pm
The pilot had 8000 hours, but it's probably a little tricky to run a multipoint checklist with alarms blaring whilst fighting the aircraft which is overriding your inputs in a determined attempt to dive nose first into the ground.
Pilot isn’t the first officer
The First Officer is literally second in command to The Captain
No shit.

You should ask Sully how important the first officer is
The FO was flying when they hit a problem, guess who immediately took over.

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CaptQuint
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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#18

Post by CaptQuint » Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:20 pm

Biker wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:11 pm
captquint wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:54 pm
Biker wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:52 pm
analhamster wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:47 pm
The pilot had 8000 hours, but it's probably a little tricky to run a multipoint checklist with alarms blaring whilst fighting the aircraft which is overriding your inputs in a determined attempt to dive nose first into the ground.
Pilot isn’t the first officer
The First Officer is literally second in command to The Captain
No shit.

You should ask Sully how important the first officer is
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Biker
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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#19

Post by Biker » Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:22 pm

analhamster wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:15 pm
Biker wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:11 pm
captquint wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:54 pm
Biker wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:52 pm
analhamster wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:47 pm
The pilot had 8000 hours, but it's probably a little tricky to run a multipoint checklist with alarms blaring whilst fighting the aircraft which is overriding your inputs in a determined attempt to dive nose first into the ground.
Pilot isn’t the first officer
The First Officer is literally second in command to The Captain
No shit.

You should ask Sully how important the first officer is
The FO was flying when they hit a problem, guess who immediately took over.
My point exactly. Pilot training is paramount

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CaptQuint
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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#20

Post by CaptQuint » Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:27 pm

I think the captains training and experience is paramount, I'm gonna ask Scully
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

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AnalHamster
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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#21

Post by AnalHamster » Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:32 pm

Biker wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:22 pm
analhamster wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:15 pm
Biker wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:11 pm
captquint wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:54 pm
Biker wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:52 pm
analhamster wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:47 pm
The pilot had 8000 hours, but it's probably a little tricky to run a multipoint checklist with alarms blaring whilst fighting the aircraft which is overriding your inputs in a determined attempt to dive nose first into the ground.
Pilot isn’t the first officer
The First Officer is literally second in command to The Captain
No shit.

You should ask Sully how important the first officer is
The FO was flying when they hit a problem, guess who immediately took over.
My point exactly. Pilot training is paramount
Yes, that's why in the event of a problem the most experienced pilot takes control. It really seems to be the opposite of your point, which is generally your cue to run away.

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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#22

Post by Biker » Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:34 pm

analhamster wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:32 pm
Biker wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:22 pm
analhamster wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:15 pm
Biker wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:11 pm
captquint wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:54 pm
Biker wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:52 pm
analhamster wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:47 pm
The pilot had 8000 hours, but it's probably a little tricky to run a multipoint checklist with alarms blaring whilst fighting the aircraft which is overriding your inputs in a determined attempt to dive nose first into the ground.
Pilot isn’t the first officer
The First Officer is literally second in command to The Captain
No shit.

You should ask Sully how important the first officer is
The FO was flying when they hit a problem, guess who immediately took over.
My point exactly. Pilot training is paramount
Yes, that's why in the event of a problem the most experienced pilot takes control. It really seems to be the opposite of your point, which is generally your cue to run away.
No. Learn to read

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AnalHamster
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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#23

Post by AnalHamster » Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:39 pm

Biker wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:34 pm
analhamster wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:32 pm
Biker wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:22 pm
analhamster wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:15 pm
Biker wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:11 pm
captquint wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:54 pm
Biker wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:52 pm
analhamster wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:47 pm
The pilot had 8000 hours, but it's probably a little tricky to run a multipoint checklist with alarms blaring whilst fighting the aircraft which is overriding your inputs in a determined attempt to dive nose first into the ground.
Pilot isn’t the first officer
The First Officer is literally second in command to The Captain
No shit.

You should ask Sully how important the first officer is
The FO was flying when they hit a problem, guess who immediately took over.
My point exactly. Pilot training is paramount
Yes, that's why in the event of a problem the most experienced pilot takes control. It really seems to be the opposite of your point, which is generally your cue to run away.
No. Learn to read
Try using words to explain your point. I say you've talked yourself into a corner with incompatible claims and now you're going to run away. The flight had a very experienced pilot in command, who would instantly have taken control when a problem arose if he wasn't already. Perhaps you think the first officer takes control in an emergency and cited Sully as an example of how not to do it?

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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#24

Post by CaptQuint » Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:39 pm

I read it as Biker thought The First Officer has legal command of the aircraft and now that he saw his error he is attempting to obscure his mistake
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

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AnalHamster
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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#25

Post by AnalHamster » Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:03 pm

The root cause seems to be boeing trying to game the system. Airbus came out with a more efficient model, so boeing popped more efficient engines on basically the same plane to compete, which introduced a potential stall problem the old plane didn't have because the size and placement of the engines would tend to force the nose up. That change would have required retraining qualified 737 pilots on the new version, which is expensive and loses a competitive edge with customers who already employ 737 pilots. So instead they introduced the kamikaze dive as an automatic fix. No need to retrain if the problem fixes itself. Oops.

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