Bad day for Boeing

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VinceBordenIII
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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#51

Post by VinceBordenIII »

analhamster wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:10 pm
VinceBordenIII wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:13 pm I'm going with fire in the hold.
Seems rather unlikely based on the pilot not thinking to mention it when he told air control he had flight control problems and wanted to return.
Mark my words: fire.in.the.hold.
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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#52

Post by AnalHamster »

Biker wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:42 am
beagleboy wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:48 pm Isn't it one of the pilot unions saying the problem is with the training? There are no simulators for it, no required specialized training and the manual is shit. For the training they are just assuming if you can fly one of the other planes, you are qualified to fly this one.
No, the sims were updated.
Few airlines have Max simulators, which start at around 30 million. American and Southwest for example use NG (the older model) simulators to train pilots on the Max. After all, Boeing and the FAA told them it was pretty much the same, which saved everyone a lot of money. There was a one hour online course though.

The kamikaze system and how to defeat it wasn't even in the flight manual until after the lion air crash when Boeing put out a warning bulletin and the FAA backed it with an emergency airworthiness directive. Around the time boeing began work on a software fix for a fleet that is now grounded worldwide. But there's no problem.

Is someone perhaps holding a lot of boeing stock?
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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#53

Post by Antknot »

Biker wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:08 pm
New evidence links jackscrews and automated system to deadly Boeing crashes

NBC News has learned that physical evidence linked to both recent Boeing crashes is a jackscrew, a mechanism that controls the angle of the horizontal stabilizer.

In an era of unprecedented airline safety, Boeing's newest version of its best-selling airliner has crashed twice in less than six months, killing 346 people and delivering a massive blow to the company's reputation.

The Federal Aviation Administration, which has investigators on the ground at the Ethiopian crash site, said they had physical evidence that may link Sunday’s crash to the October 29 crash of Lion Air off Jakarta.

NBC News has learned that physical evidence is a jackscrew, a mechanism that controls the angle of the horizontal stabilizer, that smaller wing structure in the rear of the plane. A new automated system called MCAS is connected to the horizontal stabilizer, and is only found on the 737 MAX.

MCAS is a safety device designed to run in the background and keep the plane from stalling. But it’s been implicated in the Indonesian accident through Airworthiness Directives from last November issued by the FAA.

The jackscrew was found in a position that would have raised the leading edge of the stabilizer up, which would have forced the nose down. Fixing a condition known as “runaway trim” would have been easy, a matter of turning off a couple of switches.

In the Indonesian crash, data released in a preliminary report by the Indonesian government indicated that didn’t happen and the pilots were fighting the automation.

https://www.12news.com/article/tech/sci ... xjFRKGwW-4
Jackscrew was a problem in a crash years ago near Charlotte NC, if I remember correctly.
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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#54

Post by AnalHamster »

Antknot wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:30 pm
Biker wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:08 pm
New evidence links jackscrews and automated system to deadly Boeing crashes

NBC News has learned that physical evidence linked to both recent Boeing crashes is a jackscrew, a mechanism that controls the angle of the horizontal stabilizer.

In an era of unprecedented airline safety, Boeing's newest version of its best-selling airliner has crashed twice in less than six months, killing 346 people and delivering a massive blow to the company's reputation.

The Federal Aviation Administration, which has investigators on the ground at the Ethiopian crash site, said they had physical evidence that may link Sunday’s crash to the October 29 crash of Lion Air off Jakarta.

NBC News has learned that physical evidence is a jackscrew, a mechanism that controls the angle of the horizontal stabilizer, that smaller wing structure in the rear of the plane. A new automated system called MCAS is connected to the horizontal stabilizer, and is only found on the 737 MAX.

MCAS is a safety device designed to run in the background and keep the plane from stalling. But it’s been implicated in the Indonesian accident through Airworthiness Directives from last November issued by the FAA.

The jackscrew was found in a position that would have raised the leading edge of the stabilizer up, which would have forced the nose down. Fixing a condition known as “runaway trim” would have been easy, a matter of turning off a couple of switches.

In the Indonesian crash, data released in a preliminary report by the Indonesian government indicated that didn’t happen and the pilots were fighting the automation.

https://www.12news.com/article/tech/sci ... xjFRKGwW-4
Jackscrew was a problem in a crash years ago near Charlotte NC, if I remember correctly.
An Alaska airlines flight went down due to the jackscrew breaking, that one was a maintenance problem. In this case the screw would have done exactly what it was designed to, the problem being the automation driving it was wrong.
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AnalHamster
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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#55

Post by AnalHamster »

Biker wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:16 pm
analhamster wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:15 pm
Antknot wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:30 pm
Biker wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:08 pm
New evidence links jackscrews and automated system to deadly Boeing crashes

NBC News has learned that physical evidence linked to both recent Boeing crashes is a jackscrew, a mechanism that controls the angle of the horizontal stabilizer.

In an era of unprecedented airline safety, Boeing's newest version of its best-selling airliner has crashed twice in less than six months, killing 346 people and delivering a massive blow to the company's reputation.

The Federal Aviation Administration, which has investigators on the ground at the Ethiopian crash site, said they had physical evidence that may link Sunday’s crash to the October 29 crash of Lion Air off Jakarta.

NBC News has learned that physical evidence is a jackscrew, a mechanism that controls the angle of the horizontal stabilizer, that smaller wing structure in the rear of the plane. A new automated system called MCAS is connected to the horizontal stabilizer, and is only found on the 737 MAX.

MCAS is a safety device designed to run in the background and keep the plane from stalling. But it’s been implicated in the Indonesian accident through Airworthiness Directives from last November issued by the FAA.

The jackscrew was found in a position that would have raised the leading edge of the stabilizer up, which would have forced the nose down. Fixing a condition known as “runaway trim” would have been easy, a matter of turning off a couple of switches.

In the Indonesian crash, data released in a preliminary report by the Indonesian government indicated that didn’t happen and the pilots were fighting the automation.

https://www.12news.com/article/tech/sci ... xjFRKGwW-4
Jackscrew was a problem in a crash years ago near Charlotte NC, if I remember correctly.
An Alaska airlines flight went down due to the jackscrew breaking, but in this case the screw would have done exactly what it was designed to, the problem being the automation driving it was wrong.
Yeah,its going to take some time to find out. As of last night, the Ethiopian govt has not granted access to the black box to investigators
The black boxes are currently in France being analysed by crash investigators.
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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#56

Post by AnalHamster »

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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#57

Post by AnalHamster »

Biker wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:25 pm
analhamster wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:24 pm No, France-
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... x-analysis
Thats new then. Last night it was still in Germany and still have not been examined
Still nope. It went from Ethiopia to Paris where it is being analysed. They asked the germans if they would do it first, but the germans said they couldn't as they don't have the software needed for the max 8 model. There's no standard for the black box data, it varies across airlines and plane models.
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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#58

Post by AnalHamster »

Biker wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:38 pm
analhamster wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:36 pm
Biker wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:25 pm
analhamster wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:24 pm No, France-
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... x-analysis
Thats new then. Last night it was still in Germany and still have not been examined
Still nope. It went from Ethiopia to Paris where it is being analysed. They asked the germans if they would do it first, but the germans said they couldn't as they don't have the software needed for the max 8 model. There's no standard for the black box data, it varies across airlines and plane models.
Oh, so I guess the CEO's email was incorrect.

Funny thing is, while the email was being read to me, I was wondering, 'Gee, I wonder if this person talked this over with Hammy?' Guess I have my answer
You understand everything you said was wrong? Kinda seems like you aren't grasping it. You said things that were false, and I corrected you with things that are true.
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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#59

Post by AnalHamster »

Biker wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:42 pm
analhamster wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:40 pm
Biker wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:38 pm
analhamster wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:36 pm
Biker wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:25 pm
analhamster wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:24 pm No, France-
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... x-analysis
Thats new then. Last night it was still in Germany and still have not been examined
Still nope. It went from Ethiopia to Paris where it is being analysed. They asked the germans if they would do it first, but the germans said they couldn't as they don't have the software needed for the max 8 model. There's no standard for the black box data, it varies across airlines and plane models.
Oh, so I guess the CEO's email was incorrect.

Funny thing is, while the email was being read to me, I was wondering, 'Gee, I wonder if this person talked this over with Hammy?' Guess I have my answer
You understand everything you said was wrong? Kinda seems like you aren't grasping it. You said things that were false, and I corrected you with things that are true.
My error was not going to the Search Engine Fuhrer first and instead believing the CEO of Boeing.
You understand you're attempting to criticise me for knowing more than you? :lol:

Perhaps you misunderstood the email, or perhaps it never existed. Either way you were misinformed. Deal with it like a big boy.
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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#60

Post by AnalHamster »

Biker wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:50 pm
analhamster wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:47 pm
Biker wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:42 pm
analhamster wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:40 pm
Biker wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:38 pm
analhamster wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:36 pm Still nope. It went from Ethiopia to Paris where it is being analysed. They asked the germans if they would do it first, but the germans said they couldn't as they don't have the software needed for the max 8 model. There's no standard for the black box data, it varies across airlines and plane models.
Oh, so I guess the CEO's email was incorrect.

Funny thing is, while the email was being read to me, I was wondering, 'Gee, I wonder if this person talked this over with Hammy?' Guess I have my answer
You understand everything you said was wrong? Kinda seems like you aren't grasping it. You said things that were false, and I corrected you with things that are true.
My error was not going to the Search Engine Fuhrer first and instead believing the CEO of Boeing.
You understand you're attempting to criticise me for knowing more than you? :lol:

Perhaps you misunderstood the email, or perhaps it never existed. Either way you were misinformed. Deal with it like a big boy.
Nope, the email was accurate. I know a helluva lot more than you on this.
Are you denying that the black boxes were sent from ethiopia to france where they are being analysed? Because that is the thing that has happened out here in reality, whereas you claimed first that the ethiopian government was denying access, and then that they were sent to Germany. Germany was the place Ethiopia originally said they would send them, but the Germans said they don't have the software to pull the data from the max 8 boxes. The French were then asked and said they do. You can't claim to know a helluva a lot more while making clearly false claims, dimmy.
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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#61

Post by Wut »

analhamster wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:55 pm
Biker wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:50 pm
analhamster wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:47 pm
Biker wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:42 pm
analhamster wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:40 pm
Biker wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:38 pm Oh, so I guess the CEO's email was incorrect.

Funny thing is, while the email was being read to me, I was wondering, 'Gee, I wonder if this person talked this over with Hammy?' Guess I have my answer
You understand everything you said was wrong? Kinda seems like you aren't grasping it. You said things that were false, and I corrected you with things that are true.
My error was not going to the Search Engine Fuhrer first and instead believing the CEO of Boeing.
You understand you're attempting to criticise me for knowing more than you? :lol:

Perhaps you misunderstood the email, or perhaps it never existed. Either way you were misinformed. Deal with it like a big boy.
Nope, the email was accurate. I know a helluva lot more than you on this.
Are you denying that the black boxes were sent from ethiopia to france where they are being analysed? Because that is the thing that has happened out here in reality, whereas you claimed first that the ethiopian government was denying access, and then that they were sent to Germany. Germany was the place Ethiopia originally said they would send them, but the Germans said they don't have the software to pull the data from the max 8 boxes. The French were then asked and said they do. You can't claim to know a helluva a lot more while making clearly false claims, dimmy.
You need to take his word for it, he's a Democrat ya know.
wut?
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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#62

Post by stymiegreen »

Ethiopia minister: 'Clear similarities' in Boeing crashes

The crash of Ethiopian Flight 302 on March 10 and that of a Lion Air plane in Indonesia in October _ both of them Boeing 737 Max 8 jetliners _ have "clear similarities," Ethiopia's transport minister says

https://abcnews.go.com/International/wi ... s-61742212
quote wrote:Information collected so far from the flight data recorder has indicated "clear similarities" between both crashes, she said. Both the flight data recorder and the cockpit voice recorder were sent to Paris for analysis by the French air accident investigation agency BEA.

Moges did not elaborate on what the similarities were.

The U.S. Federal Aviation Administration already has said satellite-based tracking data showed that the movements of Flight 302 were similar to those of Lion Air Flight 610, which crashed off Indonesia, killing 189 people.

Both planes flew with erratic altitude changes that could indicate the pilots struggled to control the aircraft. Shortly after their takeoffs, both crews tried to return to the airports but crashed.

Suspicions emerged that faulty sensors and software may have contributed to the crashes.

Moges said the Ethiopian government intends to release detailed findings within a month.
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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#63

Post by CaptQuint »

Groundmaxx

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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#64

Post by CaptQuint »

Right now, the Boeing 737 Max have the worst safety record among all commercial jet airliners - ever

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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#65

Post by AnalHamster »

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/20/worl ... e=Homepage

Additional info from the first crash now the cockpit voice recorder was found, one of the poor bastards was looking in the flight manual trying to figure out what the hell was causing their plane to repeatedly pitch sharply down over 20 times, the other was praying which for some reason didn't work. Part of the auto dive system actually makes it harder to pull back on the yoke and counteract what the plane thinks you should be doing, so fatigue has to be a factor when it keeps happening like that.

There are factors beyond MCAS, the lionair flight had a known bad sensor for days that maintenance hadn't fixed, the ethiopia captain should have been acutely aware of the process to beat MCAS after the FAA issued an emergency airworthiness directive due to the lionair crash. Still looking like MCAS at the root of both crashes though, it repeatedly endlessly engages unless a multistage procedure to disable it is followed, and at least the first set of pilots had absolutely no idea it existed.
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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#66

Post by AnalHamster »

Biker wrote: Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:10 am
AnalHamster wrote: Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:03 am https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/20/worl ... e=Homepage

Additional info from the first crash now the cockpit voice recorder was found, one of the poor bastards was looking in the flight manual trying to figure out what the hell was causing their plane to repeatedly pitch sharply down over 20 times, the other was praying which for some reason didn't work. Part of the auto dive system actually makes it harder to pull back on the yoke and counteract what the plane thinks you should be doing, so fatigue has to be a factor when it keeps happening like that.

There are factors beyond MCAS, the lionair flight had a known bad sensor for days that maintenance hadn't fixed, the ethiopia captain should have been acutely aware of the process to beat MCAS after the FAA issued an emergency airworthiness directive due to the lionair crash. Still looking like MCAS at the root of both crashes though, it repeatedly endlessly engages unless a multistage procedure to disable it is followed, and at least the first set of pilots had absolutely no idea it existed.
Huh, a lack of experience played a large factor it seems. Sounds like Uncle Biker nailed it again
Both pilot and copilot in the lionair crash were experienced, they just weren't informed about Boeing's new kamikaze system. The captain in the Ethiopia crash was the most experienced of all four. The problem was the kamikaze system.

I'm going to give you the same avatar as last time, still got a copy.
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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#67

Post by VinceBordenIII »

Amazing what a simple fire in the hold can do.
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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#68

Post by beagleboy »

One of a flights had a tag along pilot the day before who knew how to fix the problem.


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... er-crashed
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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#69

Post by Wut »

Biker wrote: Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:37 am
AnalHamster wrote: Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:14 am
Biker wrote: Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:10 am
AnalHamster wrote: Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:03 am https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/20/worl ... e=Homepage

Additional info from the first crash now the cockpit voice recorder was found, one of the poor bastards was looking in the flight manual trying to figure out what the hell was causing their plane to repeatedly pitch sharply down over 20 times, the other was praying which for some reason didn't work. Part of the auto dive system actually makes it harder to pull back on the yoke and counteract what the plane thinks you should be doing, so fatigue has to be a factor when it keeps happening like that.

There are factors beyond MCAS, the lionair flight had a known bad sensor for days that maintenance hadn't fixed, the ethiopia captain should have been acutely aware of the process to beat MCAS after the FAA issued an emergency airworthiness directive due to the lionair crash. Still looking like MCAS at the root of both crashes though, it repeatedly endlessly engages unless a multistage procedure to disable it is followed, and at least the first set of pilots had absolutely no idea it existed.
Huh, a lack of experience played a large factor it seems. Sounds like Uncle Biker nailed it again
Both pilot and copilot in the lionair crash were experienced, they just weren't informed about Boeing's new kamikaze system. The captain in the Ethiopia crash was the most experienced of all four. The problem was the kamikaze system.

I'm going to give you the same avatar as last time, still got a copy.
Oh, you should see the av I have planned for you. Heh
I think you're going to have to save it for another bet.
wut?
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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#70

Post by AnalHamster »

One of the things I'd been wondering about this in general is why it's so damn complicated for the plane to tell the pilots what's happening - with the MCAS screwup for example they get two to three error codes and an audio alert, all of which can mean a range of things have gone wrong. Why no touchscreen front and centre that just says 'MCAS engaged because the AOA says we're too far nose up. Override y/n?'

Turns out that Boeing engineers would actually have done basically that, except they couldn't because they had to stick with the same old layout to avoid the costly retraining. NYT has an article on this today. The whole mess happened because boeing execs failed to compete with airbus rocking out the next gen planes and had to rush to catch up, retrofitting a plane that was finished before the ipod.
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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#71

Post by AnalHamster »

Biker wrote: Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:02 pm Boeing is blowing the doors off of Airbus in sales and tech. Not sure what you’re referring to when you talk about not being able to compete
Well I'm referring basically to them not blowing the doors off Airbus in sales or tech. The 737max disaster was rushed out in response to airbus producing a better plane. American Airlines, an exclusive customer, was about to switch to the airbus neo, and even with the max disaster being rushed out American split their order. Boeing upgraded the 737 frame, badly, because they did not have time to go back to the drawing board to compete with a new one.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/23/busi ... e=Homepage
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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#72

Post by Charliesheen »

Markets where Airbus had hoped to sell its prestige plane hardly caught on or didn’t materialize at all. There isn’t a single U.S. carrier that uses the A380, Chinese airlines have only bought the model in low numbers, and Japan -- traditionally a big buyer of the Boeing 747 -- has only recently taken delivery of its first A380. Qantas Airways Ltd. formally canceled an outstanding order just last week, while Amedeo on Thursday added to the toll, pulling its 20 orders. Carriers including Air France have also pared back their commitments.
Awwww,..
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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#73

Post by AnalHamster »

The A380 is a big ass plane, the market is moving to smaller more fuel efficient planes, like the airbus neo. Certainly a big boob from airbus to bring out a 747 competitor 15 years ago when the 747 market was dying, they gambled and lost on that one. But they also developed a more efficient small plane fleet that caught Boeing short, it was American Airlines deciding to switch to airbus that made them rush out the 737 max kamikaze to compete.
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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#74

Post by CaptQuint »

“As a result of this decision we have no substantial A380 backlog and hence no basis to sustain production, despite all our sales efforts with other airlines in recent years. This leads to the end of A380 deliveries in 2021,”

https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... rders.html

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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#75

Post by AnalHamster »

Biker wrote: Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:03 pm
AnalHamster wrote: Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:05 pm The A380 is a big ass plane, the market is moving to smaller more fuel efficient planes, like the airbus neo. Certainly a big boob from airbus to bring out a 747 competitor 15 years ago when the 747 market was dying, they gambled and lost on that one. But they also developed a more efficient small plane fleet that caught Boeing short, it was American Airlines deciding to switch to airbus that made them rush out the 737 max kamikaze to compete.
AA has canceled or postponed almost all of its Airbus orders. I think your search engine results are a little off
Nope, the order for the a320neo still stands. It was AA telling boeing they'd be going exclusively airbus on the narrow body fleet replacement that caused boeing to rush out the kamikaze plane which got them half the order, 100 each. If that's getting adjusted, I doubt it would be in favour of the kamikaze jets.
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