Bad day for Boeing

For all the MAGA Trumpeteers and Lie-brul Commies to post their wearisome screeds.
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AnalHamster
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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#276

Post by AnalHamster » Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:36 pm

Biker wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:57 pm
FSchmertz wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:56 pm
AnalHamster wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:41 am
Antknot wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:14 am
DandyDon wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 3:23 am
AnalHamster wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:31 am
This one is a little simpler than proving if smurph is dead (he is), a redundant system is one where there is an actual redundancy, as in a backup for something that could fail. A simple example of a redundancy is one Boeing belatedly introduced to MCAS - instead of relying on a single sensor, it now relies on two, and will deactivate if they disagree. There is a redundant sensor, one that is only necessary if the other fails. This is what the words mean. A warning light is not a redundant system because it does not do the job of the failed system.

Is there a single person in the forum other than biker, who is only pretending not to understand, who cannot understand the simple meaning of the words? Even the obsessive fan club aren't chiming in on this one.
Pretty close, but not exactly accurate. A true redundant system will take over if there is a failure of system 1, yet still provide full functionality via system two. And you will never notice the change-over, except maybe a warning message or light.
Exactly. NASA has at least one system that uses 3 computers. If one doesn't match the others it is ignored. That way they know which system is in error.
Airbus actually have a similar system to MCAS, and have done for years but it relies on three sensors so it can ignore a bad one based on the other two rather than shutting down the whole system if one fails. Even that has suffered one fatal failure, when 2 sensors jammed and outvoted the third.
If I recall correctly, the military version (maybe the neo though) was required to monitor both sensors, unlike the commercial. Apparently the military requires back up systems in their contracts.
Yep and some airlines didnt buy purchase a single option, including Southwest
The only option they could possibly have purchased was a warning light. Only you think that is a redundant system, cos you're kinda ignorant.

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Biker
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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#277

Post by Biker » Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:45 pm

AnalHamster wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:36 pm
Biker wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:57 pm
FSchmertz wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:56 pm
AnalHamster wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:41 am
Antknot wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:14 am
DandyDon wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 3:23 am


Pretty close, but not exactly accurate. A true redundant system will take over if there is a failure of system 1, yet still provide full functionality via system two. And you will never notice the change-over, except maybe a warning message or light.
Exactly. NASA has at least one system that uses 3 computers. If one doesn't match the others it is ignored. That way they know which system is in error.
Airbus actually have a similar system to MCAS, and have done for years but it relies on three sensors so it can ignore a bad one based on the other two rather than shutting down the whole system if one fails. Even that has suffered one fatal failure, when 2 sensors jammed and outvoted the third.
If I recall correctly, the military version (maybe the neo though) was required to monitor both sensors, unlike the commercial. Apparently the military requires back up systems in their contracts.
Yep and some airlines didnt buy purchase a single option, including Southwest
The only option they could possibly have purchased was a warning light. Only you think that is a redundant system, cos you're kinda ignorant.
Nope, there are two options available. You have Google, I have peeps that actually work in the airlines. Sorry, bitch

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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#278

Post by AnalHamster » Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:48 pm

Biker wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:45 pm
AnalHamster wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:36 pm
Biker wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:57 pm
FSchmertz wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:56 pm
AnalHamster wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:41 am
Antknot wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:14 am


Exactly. NASA has at least one system that uses 3 computers. If one doesn't match the others it is ignored. That way they know which system is in error.
Airbus actually have a similar system to MCAS, and have done for years but it relies on three sensors so it can ignore a bad one based on the other two rather than shutting down the whole system if one fails. Even that has suffered one fatal failure, when 2 sensors jammed and outvoted the third.
If I recall correctly, the military version (maybe the neo though) was required to monitor both sensors, unlike the commercial. Apparently the military requires back up systems in their contracts.
Yep and some airlines didnt buy purchase a single option, including Southwest
The only option they could possibly have purchased was a warning light. Only you think that is a redundant system, cos you're kinda ignorant.
Nope, there are two options available. You have Google, I have peeps that actually work in the airlines. Sorry, bitch
Yes, we've been over this already. The two options were a warning light and another warning light. That is not a redundant system, it is just a warning light. I know you know this, that is why you can't admit seeing what I just typed and will yet again pretend you can't see it.

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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#279

Post by DandyDon » Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:03 am

Biker wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:45 pm
AnalHamster wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:36 pm
Biker wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:57 pm
FSchmertz wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:56 pm
AnalHamster wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:41 am
Antknot wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:14 am


Exactly. NASA has at least one system that uses 3 computers. If one doesn't match the others it is ignored. That way they know which system is in error.
Airbus actually have a similar system to MCAS, and have done for years but it relies on three sensors so it can ignore a bad one based on the other two rather than shutting down the whole system if one fails. Even that has suffered one fatal failure, when 2 sensors jammed and outvoted the third.
If I recall correctly, the military version (maybe the neo though) was required to monitor both sensors, unlike the commercial. Apparently the military requires back up systems in their contracts.
Yep and some airlines didnt buy purchase a single option, including Southwest
The only option they could possibly have purchased was a warning light. Only you think that is a redundant system, cos you're kinda ignorant.
Nope, there are two options available. You have Google, I have peeps that actually work in the airlines. Sorry, bitch
Give it up biker. Your oil light is not a redundant system that will supply oil in case of a failure of your oil pump, it is a warning to stop the engine. Grow a pair and admit defeat.

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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#280

Post by Biker » Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:39 am

DandyDon wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:03 am
Biker wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:45 pm
AnalHamster wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:36 pm
Biker wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:57 pm
FSchmertz wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:56 pm
AnalHamster wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:41 am


Airbus actually have a similar system to MCAS, and have done for years but it relies on three sensors so it can ignore a bad one based on the other two rather than shutting down the whole system if one fails. Even that has suffered one fatal failure, when 2 sensors jammed and outvoted the third.
If I recall correctly, the military version (maybe the neo though) was required to monitor both sensors, unlike the commercial. Apparently the military requires back up systems in their contracts.
Yep and some airlines didnt buy purchase a single option, including Southwest
The only option they could possibly have purchased was a warning light. Only you think that is a redundant system, cos you're kinda ignorant.
Nope, there are two options available. You have Google, I have peeps that actually work in the airlines. Sorry, bitch
Give it up biker. Your oil light is not a redundant system that will supply oil in case of a failure of your oil pump, it is a warning to stop the engine. Grow a pair and admit defeat.
Nope, because I actually know pilots and execs. Hammy knows Google.

Ball game

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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#281

Post by Biker » Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:43 am

AnalHamster wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 7:14 am
Biker wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:03 pm
AnalHamster wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:59 pm
Biker wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:56 pm
Did the report come out?
The preliminary report did and you welched, you welcher. Still waiting on the final reports, but since the CEO got demoted, the hearings are finding they knew in advance and kept it quiet, hundreds of people are dead and the planes are still grounded, I'm quietly confident.

Don't worry though, I'm like totally gracious in victory. Not going to rub it in at all.
I didnt welch, as the prelim report is not the official report

Planes will be back by February
737 max production has now been suspended, because they won't.

Seems boeing are having some trouble making their lemon airworthy. As I flagged up months ago, it's not actually possible to fix this without pilot retraining, and they tried to make not needing to do that a major selling point. They slid MCAS in by the backdoor to try and get around a problem with changing the flight envelope, significantly, by shoving bigger engines on a 1960s airframe after airbus caught them with their pants down with the neo. No need to train pilots to deal with the problems they created if a computer did it for them. Then the computer fix killed people. Whoopsie daisy.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50817124
Do you know why they suspended production? Quick, head to Google, bitch

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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#282

Post by AnalHamster » Thu Dec 19, 2019 6:40 am

Biker wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:39 am
DandyDon wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:03 am
Biker wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:45 pm
AnalHamster wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:36 pm
Biker wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:57 pm
FSchmertz wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:56 pm
If I recall correctly, the military version (maybe the neo though) was required to monitor both sensors, unlike the commercial. Apparently the military requires back up systems in their contracts.
Yep and some airlines didnt buy purchase a single option, including Southwest
The only option they could possibly have purchased was a warning light. Only you think that is a redundant system, cos you're kinda ignorant.
Nope, there are two options available. You have Google, I have peeps that actually work in the airlines. Sorry, bitch
Give it up biker. Your oil light is not a redundant system that will supply oil in case of a failure of your oil pump, it is a warning to stop the engine. Grow a pair and admit defeat.
Nope, because I actually know pilots and execs. Hammy knows Google.

Ball game
Poor wittle biker stuck doing a necro :lol:

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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#283

Post by AnalHamster » Thu Dec 19, 2019 6:46 am

Biker wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:43 am
AnalHamster wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 7:14 am
Biker wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:03 pm
AnalHamster wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:59 pm
Biker wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:56 pm
Did the report come out?
The preliminary report did and you welched, you welcher. Still waiting on the final reports, but since the CEO got demoted, the hearings are finding they knew in advance and kept it quiet, hundreds of people are dead and the planes are still grounded, I'm quietly confident.

Don't worry though, I'm like totally gracious in victory. Not going to rub it in at all.
I didnt welch, as the prelim report is not the official report

Planes will be back by February
737 max production has now been suspended, because they won't.

Seems boeing are having some trouble making their lemon airworthy. As I flagged up months ago, it's not actually possible to fix this without pilot retraining, and they tried to make not needing to do that a major selling point. They slid MCAS in by the backdoor to try and get around a problem with changing the flight envelope, significantly, by shoving bigger engines on a 1960s airframe after airbus caught them with their pants down with the neo. No need to train pilots to deal with the problems they created if a computer did it for them. Then the computer fix killed people. Whoopsie daisy.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50817124
Do you know why they suspended production? Quick, head to Google, bitch
They can't get clearance for their lemon to fly after 2 fatal crashes due to a failed attempt to fix a problem they created by putting modern engines on a 1960s airframe, plus a few more issues that showed up when the FAA actually did its job, having failed to do so initially due to a corrupted process partly farmed out to boeing. It's actually pretty straightforward, they already have a backlog of 400 finished jets (pending upgrades) that they can't deliver and don't know when they can.
me wrote:Boeing has delayed their software fix again. It's a pretty straightforward bit of coding - take readings from 2 sensors instead of 1, don't kamikaze if they disagree, and tell the pilots what the plane thinks is happening. I'm guessing the hold up is that implementing the simple fix means they reintroduce the stall problem from the bigger engines on a 50 year old airframe that wasn't designed to take them. Major pilot retraining costs for airlines if they can't get around it, with boeing on the hook for it.
Well golly gee whiz, looks like someone predicted both the fix they'd have to bring in and the additional problems that would create back in April. Maybe I got a secret email from the CEO..

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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#284

Post by Wut » Thu Dec 19, 2019 12:09 pm

Biker wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:39 am
DandyDon wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:03 am
Biker wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:45 pm
AnalHamster wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:36 pm
Biker wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:57 pm
FSchmertz wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:56 pm
If I recall correctly, the military version (maybe the neo though) was required to monitor both sensors, unlike the commercial. Apparently the military requires back up systems in their contracts.
Yep and some airlines didnt buy purchase a single option, including Southwest
The only option they could possibly have purchased was a warning light. Only you think that is a redundant system, cos you're kinda ignorant.
Nope, there are two options available. You have Google, I have peeps that actually work in the airlines. Sorry, bitch
Give it up biker. Your oil light is not a redundant system that will supply oil in case of a failure of your oil pump, it is a warning to stop the engine. Grow a pair and admit defeat.
Nope, because I actually know pilots and execs. Hammy knows Google.

Ball game
Why don't you disclose your super secret knowledge for the rest of us?
wut?

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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#285

Post by CaptQuint » Thu Dec 19, 2019 12:30 pm

Because Republicans make claim without evidence, it's like breathing to them.
“I don't take responsibility at all” President Donald John Trump 03/13/2020

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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#286

Post by AnalHamster » Mon Dec 23, 2019 4:08 pm

Beoing has fired the CEO over the 737 mess. Maybe the next one will continue sending biker secret emails with fake news though.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50893490

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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#287

Post by Charliesheen » Mon Dec 23, 2019 5:18 pm

That's what boards are for. Let the CEO fly like an eagle, until he doesn't.

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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#288

Post by Biker » Mon Dec 23, 2019 5:37 pm

AnalHamster wrote:
Mon Dec 23, 2019 4:08 pm
Beoing has fired the CEO over the 737 mess. Maybe the next one will continue sending biker secret emails with fake news though.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50893490
Yeah, they cant get their shit together and its hurting the airlines. United has delayed 737s until June. (Quick, head to Google!!!!)

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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#289

Post by AnalHamster » Mon Dec 23, 2019 9:14 pm

Biker wrote:
Mon Dec 23, 2019 5:37 pm
AnalHamster wrote:
Mon Dec 23, 2019 4:08 pm
Beoing has fired the CEO over the 737 mess. Maybe the next one will continue sending biker secret emails with fake news though.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50893490
Yeah, they cant get their shit together and its hurting the airlines. United has delayed 737s until June. (Quick, head to Google!!!!)
He's been telling the airlines they'll be back flying any day now for ten months. They won't be, because it's a lemon. They could fly it if they finally admit that it's a significantly different aircraft requiring additional training and certification, and the retraining would actually be cheaper than the delay. I expect the next CEO will grasp that fairly soon. This whole saga has been based on their need not to retrain pilots to boost sales, it's why MCAS was introduced in the first place.

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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#290

Post by AnalHamster » Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:16 pm

Boeing finally caves and admits yes, pilots need additional training to deal with the problems they built in to their lemon -
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/07/busi ... ining.html

That should get them over, I'd expect the max to be flying again within 6 months now they have finally admitted airlines need to spend millions retraining pilots. It'll take longer than that to simulator train all the pilots though, because the simulator producers can't meet demand in the short term, but still, a slow ramp up to full use of the existing planes is now on the way. A large part of this whole disaster for Boeing was their insistence that their lemon could be flown by any 737 pilot with a spare hour and an ipad. It would still have been a deathtrap with additional training before the software fixes, and it will still be one of the more dangerous airplanes to fly, but admitting they fucked up and pilots do need training to deal with the fuckup after all will bring it within the safety envelope and get them airborne again. If all the sales contract are like the one they signed with SouthWest, they'll only owe an extra $1 million per plane sold for the training, way cheaper than continuing to pretend no additional training is required.

I'm going to look into buying a little stock at this point, still risky for further shocks but probably nearing or at the bottom. At least close enough to it that over a few years recovery it's a damn good buy even if new shit does come out.

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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#291

Post by Biker » Wed Jan 08, 2020 5:56 pm

AnalHamster wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:16 pm
Boeing finally caves and admits yes, pilots need additional training
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/07/busi ... ining.html
Gee, where have I heard that before? Oh thats right.....
Biker wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:35 pm
Pilot training is the key. The EA first officer only had 300 hours

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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#292

Post by AnalHamster » Wed Jan 08, 2020 6:33 pm

Biker wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 5:56 pm
AnalHamster wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:16 pm
Boeing finally caves and admits yes, pilots need additional training
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/07/busi ... ining.html
Gee, where have I heard that before? Oh thats right.....
Biker wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:35 pm
Pilot training is the key. The EA first officer only had 300 hours
Trying to pretend you weren't arguing with me when I flagged this up right at the start and you were pretending it was all explained in secret CEO emails? :lol:
me on page one all those months ago wrote:The root cause seems to be boeing trying to game the system. Airbus came out with a more efficient model, so boeing popped more efficient engines on basically the same plane to compete, which introduced a potential stall problem the old plane didn't have because the size and placement of the engines would tend to force the nose up. That change would have required retraining qualified 737 pilots on the new version, which is expensive and loses a competitive edge with customers who already employ 737 pilots. So instead they introduced the kamikaze dive as an automatic fix. No need to retrain if the problem fixes itself. Oops.

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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#293

Post by Stapes » Wed Jan 08, 2020 6:46 pm

Do you mean Biker still hasn't paid up? What a fucking welcher.
Not in the a.m. bro.

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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#294

Post by Biker » Wed Jan 08, 2020 6:50 pm

Stapes wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 6:46 pm
Do you mean Biker still hasn't paid up? What a fucking welcher.
Hammy made the rules
AnalHamster wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:58 am
Biker wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:50 am
analhamster wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:49 am
Biker wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:36 am
FYI...It will come out soon that this accident has nothing to do with 737 Max supposed flaw.
Bet?

Will the 'supposed flaw' also be ruled out in the other crash that happened shortly after takeoff and showed the same rapid changes in altitude?
Sure. Outline the bet. From what I’m hearing it’s either wing flap failure or pilot error
Pretty simple, faulty sensor data causing MCAS to repeatedly activate sending the plane into repeated dives to correct non existent stalls was a major factor in both crashes. One month avatar with the crash investigation report being decisive, null and void if no cause determined.

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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#295

Post by AnalHamster » Wed Jan 08, 2020 6:53 pm

Stapes wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 6:46 pm
Do you mean Biker still hasn't paid up? What a fucking welcher.
Yeah he's still pretending he doesn't understand what happened. It's kind odd since the Boeing CEO got it and got sacked for it, and had a direct email line to welchin' biker to explain it, but welchin' biker needs some more time.

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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#296

Post by Stapes » Wed Jan 08, 2020 6:56 pm

Image
Not in the a.m. bro.

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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#297

Post by AnalHamster » Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:03 pm

"Pretty simple, faulty sensor data causing MCAS to repeatedly activate sending the plane into repeated dives to correct non existent stalls was a major factor in both crashes. One month avatar with the crash investigation report being decisive, null and void if no cause determined."

Hey I'll tell you what welchin' biker, since we now have one final crash report and two preliminary crash reports all agreeing MCAS was a major factor, how about I offer a wee modification - you concede in the face of overwhelming decisive evidence and it somehow turns out that the final crash report on the final crash disagrees with the preliminary report on that same crash, then you can choose my avatar for all time, altering it whenever you wish in perpetuity. Or keep welchin', but I do think it's kinda affecting your rep at this point, welcher.

Otherwise you man the fuck up and stop welchin'. Thoughts?

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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#298

Post by Biker » Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:08 pm

AnalHamster wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 6:53 pm
Stapes wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 6:46 pm
Do you mean Biker still hasn't paid up? What a fucking welcher.
Yeah he's still pretending he doesn't understand what happened. It's kind odd since the Boeing CEO got it and got sacked for it, and had a direct email line to welchin' biker to explain it, but welchin' biker needs some more time.
Oh, you think thats why he was fired? :lol:

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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#299

Post by Biker » Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:08 pm

AnalHamster wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:03 pm
"Pretty simple, faulty sensor data causing MCAS to repeatedly activate sending the plane into repeated dives to correct non existent stalls was a major factor in both crashes. One month avatar with the crash investigation report being decisive, null and void if no cause determined."

Hey I'll tell you what welchin' biker, since we now have one final crash report and two preliminary crash reports all agreeing MCAS was a major factor, how about I offer a wee modification - you concede in the face of overwhelming decisive evidence and it somehow turns out that the final crash report on the final crash disagrees with the preliminary report on that same crash, then you can choose my avatar for all time, altering it whenever you wish in perpetuity. Or keep welchin', but I do think it's kinda affecting your rep at this point, welcher.

Otherwise you man the fuck up and stop welchin'. Thoughts?
So you would like to change the rules that you established in the beginning? Sure, but it will cost you

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Re: Bad day for Boeing

#300

Post by AnalHamster » Wed Jan 08, 2020 9:15 pm

Biker wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:08 pm
AnalHamster wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 6:53 pm
Stapes wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 6:46 pm
Do you mean Biker still hasn't paid up? What a fucking welcher.
Yeah he's still pretending he doesn't understand what happened. It's kind odd since the Boeing CEO got it and got sacked for it, and had a direct email line to welchin' biker to explain it, but welchin' biker needs some more time.
Oh, you think thats why he was fired? :lol:
Yes, he was fired for mishandling the max debacle. Boeing said as much. They probably didn't have your secret made up email source though.

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