I'm not exactly a fan of Israel.....

[Animal]

There is a lot in the news about Israeli troops surrounding the home of the Hamas Leader behind the Oct 7th attack. Surely the guy isn't home, right?

[Biker]

There is a lot in the news about Israeli troops surrounding the home of the Hamas Leader behind the Oct 7th attack. Surely the guy isn't home, right?

I thought he has been killed already?

[Burn1dwn]

Lots of Antisemitic countries out there. I guess....

[Biker]

Lots of Antisemitic countries out there. I guess....

The military industrial complex has money to make, ya' know. With Ukraine cash drying up, where else can they go?

[CHEEZY17]

Lots of Antisemitic countries out there. I guess....

I dont agree with the Biden administration on much but this seems spot on from Blinken regarding the "no" vote:

"But when it comes to a ceasefire at this moment – with Hamas still alive, still intact, and, again, with the stated intent of repeating October 7th again and again and again — that would simply perpetuate the problem."

[Burn1dwn]

Lots of Antisemitic countries out there. I guess....

I dont agree with the Biden administration on much but this seems spot on from Blinken regarding the "no" vote:

"But when it comes to a ceasefire at this moment – with Hamas still alive, still intact, and, again, with the stated intent of repeating October 7th again and again and again — that would simply perpetuate the problem."

You think Israelis are thwarting future atracks by playing whack a mole in a place millions of people live, the rest of the UN Security Council knows they are just getting revenge at this point and hurting all Gazans because they can. There is one reason we are not backing a ceasefire, Biker already gave it.

[CHEEZY17]

Lots of Antisemitic countries out there. I guess....

I dont agree with the Biden administration on much but this seems spot on from Blinken regarding the "no" vote:

"But when it comes to a ceasefire at this moment – with Hamas still alive, still intact, and, again, with the stated intent of repeating October 7th again and again and again — that would simply perpetuate the problem."

You think Israelis are thwarting future atracks by playing whack a mole in a place millions of people live, the rest of the UN Security Council knows they are just getting revenge at this point and hurting all Gazans because they can. There is one reason we are not backing a ceasefire, Biker already gave it.

So the fact that Hamas has vowed to never stop means nothing?

[Burn1dwn]

Lots of Antisemitic countries out there. I guess....

I dont agree with the Biden administration on much but this seems spot on from Blinken regarding the "no" vote:

"But when it comes to a ceasefire at this moment – with Hamas still alive, still intact, and, again, with the stated intent of repeating October 7th again and again and again — that would simply perpetuate the problem."

You think Israelis are thwarting future atracks by playing whack a mole in a place millions of people live, the rest of the UN Security Council knows they are just getting revenge at this point and hurting all Gazans because they can. There is one reason we are not backing a ceasefire, Biker already gave it.

So the fact that Hamas has vowed to never stop means nothing?

It means that Israel needs to find a better way to spend the billions in aid we gave them before 10/7 to protect Israelis.

Do you think what Israel is doing reduces or increases opposition to their government policies in the occupied territories? Israel doesn't even support allowing the secular PA taking over Gaza. They don't care about non Hamas Palestinians and everyone in the world except US politicians know it. Why do you think the UK abstained from the Security Council vote for ceasefire?

Why would we as a nation support that wholeheartedly? How does it help Americans?

[Burn1dwn]

[CHEEZY17]

Lots of Antisemitic countries out there. I guess....

I dont agree with the Biden administration on much but this seems spot on from Blinken regarding the "no" vote:

"But when it comes to a ceasefire at this moment – with Hamas still alive, still intact, and, again, with the stated intent of repeating October 7th again and again and again — that would simply perpetuate the problem."

You think Israelis are thwarting future atracks by playing whack a mole in a place millions of people live, the rest of the UN Security Council knows they are just getting revenge at this point and hurting all Gazans because they can. There is one reason we are not backing a ceasefire, Biker already gave it.

So the fact that Hamas has vowed to never stop means nothing?

It means that Israel needs to find a better way to spend the billions in aid we gave them before 10/7 to protect Israelis.
So its Israels fault that Hamas launched a barbaric terrorist attack on the civilian populace? When does Hamas become responsible and accountable for their atrocities?

Do you think what Israel is doing reduces or increases opposition to their government policies in the occupied territories? Israel is trying to root out Hamas and destroy its support. Hamas enjoys broad support within the Palestinian people as evidence by the poll we examined prior. Of course the people who support Hamas are not going to like that.
Israel doesn't even support allowing the secular PA taking over Gaza. You mean the Fatah backed PA? Do you think theyre so innocent? Theyre less bad than Hamas, I'll give you that.
They don't care about non Hamas Palestinians and everyone in the world except US politicians know it. Why do you think the UK abstained from the Security Council vote for ceasefire? The UN is infamously anti American and anti Israel. I dont put too much stock in anything they do or vote for or against. An organization that puts Iran on the Human Rights Council and kow-tows to genocidal and oppressive China is devoid of any moral authority.

Why would we as a nation support that wholeheartedly? How does it help Americans? The IDF eliminating Hamas means the elimination of a terroristic group. That will always be a good thing.

.

[Animal]

people have lost their resolve to punish unacceptable behavior. in every aspect and in every situation. punishment is never enjoyable to watch, but it has to be done. the alternative is always worse.

[saltydog]

people have lost their resolve to punish unacceptable behavior. in every aspect and in every situation. punishment is never enjoyable to watch, but it has to be done. the alternative is always worse.

I agree with you.

Actions should always have consequences.

[Animal]

[Burn1dwn]

It means that Israel needs to find a better way to spend the billions in aid we gave them before 10/7 to protect Israelis.

So its Israels fault that Hamas launched a barbaric terrorist attack on the civilian populace? When does Hamas become responsible and accountable for their atrocities?

Hamas and their fighters are definitely responsible and should be held accountable for October 7th. No one forced them to commit the invasion and brutality they inflicted on the Israelis.

However, Israel is definitely at fault for not protecting their citizens that live up against a protected border wall. They are the ones making these settlements along their border. Why wouldn't they have a buffer zone if they werern't going to defend their people with the ample aid they are given?

How is this even disputed? Who else's responsibility was it to protect the Kibbutzs? They are given plenty of resources and have the man power to stop converted lawn mowers from flying across their border. They were warned of this attack over a year in advance and should be expecting it. Yet it took hours to respond to it?

Do you think what Israel is doing reduces or increases opposition to their government policies in the occupied territories?

Israel is trying to root out Hamas and destroy its support. Hamas enjoys broad support within the Palestinian people as evidence by the poll we examined prior. Of course the people who support Hamas are not going to like that.

You didn't answer my question directly but you actually did give an answer. So this collective punishment creates more enemies. Good, we can move on...

Israel doesn't even support allowing the secular PA taking over Gaza.

You mean the Fatah backed PA? Do you think theyre so innocent? Theyre less bad than Hamas, I'll give you that.

Newsflash, the Israeli right wing government wants a 2 state solution to this conflict as much as Hamas does. They haven't operated in good faith since Rabin was assassinated by a right wing Israeli. They have been hoping for an excuse to retake Gaza since they withdrew. Which is why they supported Hamas against the PA in the first place. They want to divide the Palestinians in the WB and GS. Divide and conquer, the 1st rule of occupation.

Of course the PA is not innocent, they are politicians. Just like Israeli leadership. But they are not Islamists that "hate our freedom" which should be someone that you can work with. Unless you are a hard-core Zionist like Bibi.

They don't care about non Hamas Palestinians and everyone in the world except US politicians know it. Why do you think the UK abstained from the Security Council vote for ceasefire?

The UN is infamously anti American and anti Israel. I dont put too much stock in anything they do or vote for or against. An organization that puts Iran on the Human Rights Council and kow-tows to genocidal and oppressive China is devoid of any moral authority.

Again you didn't address my point. Israel cares so much about innocent Palestinians that they don't consider any of them innocent and worth saving. I don't need the UN to tell me that Israelis don't care about ordinary Palestinians. I just have to open my eyes.

Why would we as a nation support that wholeheartedly? How does it help Americans?

The IDF eliminating Hamas means the elimination of a terroristic group. That will always be a good thing.

Bombing innocent civilians never defeats the enemies. It emboldens them and raises their standing with the population being bombed. See World War 2 in Germany, Iraq, Vietnam and North Korea if you need proof. Again, how does this collective punishment game of whack a mole help our interests (or Israel's)?

[CHEEZY17]

Hamas and their fighters are definitely responsible and should be held accountable for October 7th. No one forced them to commit the invasion and brutality they inflicted on the Israelis.

However, Israel is definitely at fault for not protecting their citizens that live up against a protected border wall. They are the ones making these settlements along their border. Why wouldn't they have a buffer zone if they werern't going to defend their people with the ample aid they are given?

How is this even disputed? Who else's responsibility was it to protect the Kibbutzs? They are given plenty of resources and have the man power to stop converted lawn mowers from flying across their border. They were warned of this attack over a year in advance and should be expecting it. Yet it took hours to respond to it?

Burn, its great that you say Hamas and it fighters (what about its supporters and enablers that dont carry a gun?) should be held accountable but then in the very next breath you excuse their actions by saying Israel should have done more. Thats like saying to the man who got mugged "Why didnt you know Karate? Since you didnt know karate, its YOUR fault you got mugged." Yes, Israel can always do "more" but at what point is it enough? At what point is it OK to say "People shouldnt be flying over the wall to record themselves killing babies and raping women." Never? Hamas and the people who elected them and support them have some responsibility here too.

You didn't answer my question directly but you actually did give an answer. So this collective punishment creates more enemies. Good, we can move on...

Trying to root out and destroy Hamas IS the answer. And of course the people who support Hamas are not going to like that. There was a free and democratic election, a peaceful solution if you will, to not have Hamas in power. That failed. The Palestinian people knowingly elected Hamas and everything it stands for. They are reaping what they sowed but now its Israels fault that the people the Palestinians elected are follwing through with their known beliefs? Why cant you see the flip side of your question? Do you think murdering civilians, raping women, killing babies and taking civilian hostages "creates enemies"?

Newsflash, the Israeli right wing government wants a 2 state solution to this conflict as much as Hamas does. They haven't operated in good faith since Rabin was assassinated by a right wing Israeli. They have been hoping for an excuse to retake Gaza since they withdrew. Which is why they supported Hamas against the PA in the first place. They want to divide the Palestinians in the WB and GS. Divide and conquer, the 1st rule of occupation.
Of course the PA is not innocent, they are politicians. Just like Israeli leadership. But they are not Islamists that "hate our freedom" which should be someone that you can work with. Unless you are a hard-core Zionist like Bibi.

So we have two entities that dont want a 2 state solution. That just leaves us back at the beginning then. I freely admit I dont have the answer. I'm not sure anyone does.

Again you didn't address my point. Israel cares so much about innocent Palestinians that they don't consider any of them innocent and worth saving. I don't need the UN to tell me that Israelis don't care about ordinary Palestinians. I just have to open my eyes.

At some point Hamas has to take responsibility for purposely and intentionally conducting military operations in schools or hospitals. At what point do you say THEY dont care about the Palestinian people when they callously use them in that manner? At what point do you say THEY dont care when their leaders have openly said it doesnt matter how many die in the struggle? And again, the Palestinian people voted for Hamas and all it stands for. Do your open eyes see those things?
When your enemy creates a military stronghold purposely under a hospital what do you suggest Israel do at that point?

Why would we as a nation support that wholeheartedly? How does it help Americans?

The IDF eliminating Hamas means the elimination of a terroristic group. That will always be a good thing.

Bombing innocent civilians never defeats the enemies. It emboldens them and raises their standing with the population being bombed. See World War 2 in Germany, Iraq, Vietnam and North Korea if you need proof. Again, how does this collective punishment game of whack a mole help our interests (or Israel's)?

Eliminating any terroristic group is a benefit to Americans and the world. Again, please see the flip side to your premise: recording yourself raping and murdering civilians is not a great way to pursue peace.

[Animal]

there is no end to the examples of innocent people being in the line of fire after these guerilla warfare type militias make an attack. In Vietnam we never really knew when we were killing a North or South Vietnamese. In Afghanistan they never really knew when they were killing Al Quada or Taliban or just a local Afghani. I'm sure Korea was like that, etc. I'm sure its that way to some degree in Ukraine right now. If you live in a country where the bad guys look just like you and hide among you, then you just have to get the fuck out until the fighting stops. And then, when its over, you have to make sure they are no longer welcome. The problem is when they ARE welcome.

[CHEEZY17]

They care so much about the Palestinian people though!
Hamas terrorists capture aid trucks meant for the Palestinian people and then for good measure shoot at the populace.

[CHEEZY17]

Immediately after claiming Israel will not escape the wrath of Allah, dude collapses with a heart attack.

[Burn1dwn]

Hamas and their fighters are definitely responsible and should be held accountable for October 7th. No one forced them to commit the invasion and brutality they inflicted on the Israelis.

However, Israel is definitely at fault for not protecting their citizens that live up against a protected border wall. They are the ones making these settlements along their border. Why wouldn't they have a buffer zone if they werern't going to defend their people with the ample aid they are given?

How is this even disputed? Who else's responsibility was it to protect the Kibbutzs? They are given plenty of resources and have the man power to stop converted lawn mowers from flying across their border. They were warned of this attack over a year in advance and should be expecting it. Yet it took hours to respond to it?

Burn, its great that you say Hamas and it fighters (what about its supporters and enablers that dont carry a gun?) should be held accountable but then in the very next breath you excuse their actions by saying Israel should have done more. Thats like saying to the man who got mugged "Why didnt you know Karate? Since you didnt know karate, its YOUR fault you got mugged." Yes, Israel can always do "more" but at what point is it enough? At what point is it OK to say "People shouldnt be flying over the wall to record themselves killing babies and raping women." Never? Hamas and the people who elected them and support them have some responsibility here too.

Hamas fighters that breached the border and committed the crimes should be held accountable. Israel should do a better job of protecting it's citizens that it allows to live against a protected border wall. They are given plenty of aid and have the resources. Not sure how these statements contradict each other.

Your analogy would make more sense if it started with the mugger giving his intentions over and over and the victim not protecting himself better.

When Palestinians protested (and threw rocks) near the border for over two years, the Israeli response was to shoot them and keep them further from the border. They don't need to be taught "karate". They failed their people and even Israelis admit this.

You didn't answer my question directly but you actually did give an answer. So this collective punishment creates more enemies. Good, we can move on...

Trying to root out and destroy Hamas IS the answer. And of course the people who support Hamas are not going to like that. There was a free and democratic election, a peaceful solution if you will, to not have Hamas in power. That failed. The Palestinian people knowingly elected Hamas and everything it stands for. They are reaping what they sowed but now its Israels fault that the people the Palestinians elected are follwing through with their known beliefs? Why cant you see the flip side of your question? Do you think murdering civilians, raping women, killing babies and taking civilian hostages "creates enemies"?

More than half of Gazans were not even born or old enough to vote in the 2006 elections. Hamas won by a couple points against the PA. So a quarter of current Gazans might have voted for Hamas.

Hamas (like most Middle Eastern parties) has political and social wings as well as the "military" one. Sharon withdrew from Gaza for this exact scenario. Israel fostered divisions between the PA and Hamas for this exact scenario. They can at least be honest about not wanting peace either. That would just make it tougher to sell to the US citizens. Then we can stay the fuck out of it.

Newsflash, the Israeli right wing government wants a 2 state solution to this conflict as much as Hamas does. They haven't operated in good faith since Rabin was assassinated by a right wing Israeli. They have been hoping for an excuse to retake Gaza since they withdrew. Which is why they supported Hamas against the PA in the first place. They want to divide the Palestinians in the WB and GS. Divide and conquer, the 1st rule of occupation.
Of course the PA is not innocent, they are politicians. Just like Israeli leadership. But they are not Islamists that "hate our freedom" which should be someone that you can work with. Unless you are a hard-core Zionist like Bibi.

So we have two entities that dont want a 2 state solution. That just leaves us back at the beginning then. I freely admit I dont have the answer. I'm not sure anyone does.

Which is why we should stay the fuck out of it.

Again you didn't address my point. Israel cares so much about innocent Palestinians that they don't consider any of them innocent and worth saving. I don't need the UN to tell me that Israelis don't care about ordinary Palestinians. I just have to open my eyes.

At some point Hamas has to take responsibility for purposely and intentionally conducting military operations in schools or hospitals. At what point do you say THEY dont care about the Palestinian people when they callously use them in that manner? At what point do you say THEY dont care when their leaders have openly said it doesnt matter how many die in the struggle? And again, the Palestinian people voted for Hamas and all it stands for. Do your open eyes see those things?
When your enemy creates a military stronghold purposely under a hospital what do you suggest Israel do at that point?

Israelis bomb schools and hospitals because Hamas uses them for military operations, they bomb apartment buildings because Hamas uses their neighbors as "human shields", they bomb mosques because Hamas uses them for military operations, they bomb streets because Hamas uses them to transport weapons....do you see a pattern here. They bomb what ever they want because they can. And all they have to do is whisper Hamas.

Why would we as a nation support that wholeheartedly? How does it help Americans?

The IDF eliminating Hamas means the elimination of a terroristic group. That will always be a good thing.

So now we are the world police for Israel again?

Bombing innocent civilians never defeats the enemies. It emboldens them and raises their standing with the population being bombed. See World War 2 in Germany, Iraq, Vietnam and North Korea if you need proof. Again, how does this collective punishment game of whack a mole help our interests (or Israel's)?

Eliminating any terroristic group is a benefit to Americans and the world. Again, please see the flip side to your premise: recording yourself raping and murdering civilians is not a great way to pursue peace.

I never claimed Hamas was trying to achieve peace, I am just pointing out that Israel is not either. I think forcing the Israelis back to a 2 state solution is much better than standing by while they blow up any chance of it ever happening. We damn sure should not be paying for it.

[CentralTexasCrude]

[Biker]

Jokes now acceptable in Ivy League schools! Salty approves!

[CHEEZY17]

Jokes now acceptable in Ivy League schools! Salty approves!

G-damn it.

[CHEEZY17]

[Biker]

[CHEEZY17]

Damn. I almost feel bad for Cenk here.