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I dont agree with the Biden administration on much but this seems spot on from Blinken regarding the "no" vote:
You think Israelis are thwarting future atracks by playing whack a mole in a place millions of people live, the rest of the UN Security Council knows they are just getting revenge at this point and hurting all Gazans because they can. There is one reason we are not backing a ceasefire, Biker already gave it.CHEEZY17 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 9:57 pmI dont agree with the Biden administration on much but this seems spot on from Blinken regarding the "no" vote:
"But when it comes to a ceasefire at this moment – with Hamas still alive, still intact, and, again, with the stated intent of repeating October 7th again and again and again — that would simply perpetuate the problem."
So the fact that Hamas has vowed to never stop means nothing?Burn1dwn wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2023 12:44 amYou think Israelis are thwarting future atracks by playing whack a mole in a place millions of people live, the rest of the UN Security Council knows they are just getting revenge at this point and hurting all Gazans because they can. There is one reason we are not backing a ceasefire, Biker already gave it.CHEEZY17 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 9:57 pmI dont agree with the Biden administration on much but this seems spot on from Blinken regarding the "no" vote:
"But when it comes to a ceasefire at this moment – with Hamas still alive, still intact, and, again, with the stated intent of repeating October 7th again and again and again — that would simply perpetuate the problem."
It means that Israel needs to find a better way to spend the billions in aid we gave them before 10/7 to protect Israelis.CHEEZY17 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2023 2:08 amSo the fact that Hamas has vowed to never stop means nothing?Burn1dwn wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2023 12:44 amYou think Israelis are thwarting future atracks by playing whack a mole in a place millions of people live, the rest of the UN Security Council knows they are just getting revenge at this point and hurting all Gazans because they can. There is one reason we are not backing a ceasefire, Biker already gave it.CHEEZY17 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 9:57 pmI dont agree with the Biden administration on much but this seems spot on from Blinken regarding the "no" vote:
"But when it comes to a ceasefire at this moment – with Hamas still alive, still intact, and, again, with the stated intent of repeating October 7th again and again and again — that would simply perpetuate the problem."
.Burn1dwn wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2023 2:23 amIt means that Israel needs to find a better way to spend the billions in aid we gave them before 10/7 to protect Israelis.CHEEZY17 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2023 2:08 amSo the fact that Hamas has vowed to never stop means nothing?Burn1dwn wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2023 12:44 amYou think Israelis are thwarting future atracks by playing whack a mole in a place millions of people live, the rest of the UN Security Council knows they are just getting revenge at this point and hurting all Gazans because they can. There is one reason we are not backing a ceasefire, Biker already gave it.CHEEZY17 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 9:57 pmI dont agree with the Biden administration on much but this seems spot on from Blinken regarding the "no" vote:
"But when it comes to a ceasefire at this moment – with Hamas still alive, still intact, and, again, with the stated intent of repeating October 7th again and again and again — that would simply perpetuate the problem."
So its Israels fault that Hamas launched a barbaric terrorist attack on the civilian populace? When does Hamas become responsible and accountable for their atrocities?
Do you think what Israel is doing reduces or increases opposition to their government policies in the occupied territories? Israel is trying to root out Hamas and destroy its support. Hamas enjoys broad support within the Palestinian people as evidence by the poll we examined prior. Of course the people who support Hamas are not going to like that.
Israel doesn't even support allowing the secular PA taking over Gaza. You mean the Fatah backed PA? Do you think theyre so innocent? Theyre less bad than Hamas, I'll give you that.
They don't care about non Hamas Palestinians and everyone in the world except US politicians know it. Why do you think the UK abstained from the Security Council vote for ceasefire? The UN is infamously anti American and anti Israel. I dont put too much stock in anything they do or vote for or against. An organization that puts Iran on the Human Rights Council and kow-tows to genocidal and oppressive China is devoid of any moral authority.
Why would we as a nation support that wholeheartedly? How does it help Americans? The IDF eliminating Hamas means the elimination of a terroristic group. That will always be a good thing.
Hamas and their fighters are definitely responsible and should be held accountable for October 7th. No one forced them to commit the invasion and brutality they inflicted on the Israelis.
You didn't answer my question directly but you actually did give an answer. So this collective punishment creates more enemies. Good, we can move on...
Newsflash, the Israeli right wing government wants a 2 state solution to this conflict as much as Hamas does. They haven't operated in good faith since Rabin was assassinated by a right wing Israeli. They have been hoping for an excuse to retake Gaza since they withdrew. Which is why they supported Hamas against the PA in the first place. They want to divide the Palestinians in the WB and GS. Divide and conquer, the 1st rule of occupation.
Again you didn't address my point. Israel cares so much about innocent Palestinians that they don't consider any of them innocent and worth saving. I don't need the UN to tell me that Israelis don't care about ordinary Palestinians. I just have to open my eyes.CHEEZY17 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2023 12:22 pmThe UN is infamously anti American and anti Israel. I dont put too much stock in anything they do or vote for or against. An organization that puts Iran on the Human Rights Council and kow-tows to genocidal and oppressive China is devoid of any moral authority.
Bombing innocent civilians never defeats the enemies. It emboldens them and raises their standing with the population being bombed. See World War 2 in Germany, Iraq, Vietnam and North Korea if you need proof. Again, how does this collective punishment game of whack a mole help our interests (or Israel's)?
burn wrote:Hamas and their fighters are definitely responsible and should be held accountable for October 7th. No one forced them to commit the invasion and brutality they inflicted on the Israelis.
However, Israel is definitely at fault for not protecting their citizens that live up against a protected border wall. They are the ones making these settlements along their border. Why wouldn't they have a buffer zone if they werern't going to defend their people with the ample aid they are given?
How is this even disputed? Who else's responsibility was it to protect the Kibbutzs? They are given plenty of resources and have the man power to stop converted lawn mowers from flying across their border. They were warned of this attack over a year in advance and should be expecting it. Yet it took hours to respond to it?
Trying to root out and destroy Hamas IS the answer. And of course the people who support Hamas are not going to like that. There was a free and democratic election, a peaceful solution if you will, to not have Hamas in power. That failed. The Palestinian people knowingly elected Hamas and everything it stands for. They are reaping what they sowed but now its Israels fault that the people the Palestinians elected are follwing through with their known beliefs? Why cant you see the flip side of your question? Do you think murdering civilians, raping women, killing babies and taking civilian hostages "creates enemies"?burn wrote:You didn't answer my question directly but you actually did give an answer. So this collective punishment creates more enemies. Good, we can move on...
So we have two entities that dont want a 2 state solution. That just leaves us back at the beginning then. I freely admit I dont have the answer. I'm not sure anyone does.burn wrote:Newsflash, the Israeli right wing government wants a 2 state solution to this conflict as much as Hamas does. They haven't operated in good faith since Rabin was assassinated by a right wing Israeli. They have been hoping for an excuse to retake Gaza since they withdrew. Which is why they supported Hamas against the PA in the first place. They want to divide the Palestinians in the WB and GS. Divide and conquer, the 1st rule of occupation.
Of course the PA is not innocent, they are politicians. Just like Israeli leadership. But they are not Islamists that "hate our freedom" which should be someone that you can work with. Unless you are a hard-core Zionist like Bibi.
At some point Hamas has to take responsibility for purposely and intentionally conducting military operations in schools or hospitals. At what point do you say THEY dont care about the Palestinian people when they callously use them in that manner? At what point do you say THEY dont care when their leaders have openly said it doesnt matter how many die in the struggle? And again, the Palestinian people voted for Hamas and all it stands for. Do your open eyes see those things?burn wrote:Again you didn't address my point. Israel cares so much about innocent Palestinians that they don't consider any of them innocent and worth saving. I don't need the UN to tell me that Israelis don't care about ordinary Palestinians. I just have to open my eyes.
The IDF eliminating Hamas means the elimination of a terroristic group. That will always be a good thing.burn wrote:Why would we as a nation support that wholeheartedly? How does it help Americans?
Eliminating any terroristic group is a benefit to Americans and the world. Again, please see the flip side to your premise: recording yourself raping and murdering civilians is not a great way to pursue peace.burn wrote:Bombing innocent civilians never defeats the enemies. It emboldens them and raises their standing with the population being bombed. See World War 2 in Germany, Iraq, Vietnam and North Korea if you need proof. Again, how does this collective punishment game of whack a mole help our interests (or Israel's)?
Hamas fighters that breached the border and committed the crimes should be held accountable. Israel should do a better job of protecting it's citizens that it allows to live against a protected border wall. They are given plenty of aid and have the resources. Not sure how these statements contradict each other.CHEEZY17 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 12, 2023 1:23 pmBurn, its great that you say Hamas and it fighters (what about its supporters and enablers that dont carry a gun?) should be held accountable but then in the very next breath you excuse their actions by saying Israel should have done more. Thats like saying to the man who got mugged "Why didnt you know Karate? Since you didnt know karate, its YOUR fault you got mugged." Yes, Israel can always do "more" but at what point is it enough? At what point is it OK to say "People shouldnt be flying over the wall to record themselves killing babies and raping women." Never? Hamas and the people who elected them and support them have some responsibility here too.burn wrote:Hamas and their fighters are definitely responsible and should be held accountable for October 7th. No one forced them to commit the invasion and brutality they inflicted on the Israelis.
However, Israel is definitely at fault for not protecting their citizens that live up against a protected border wall. They are the ones making these settlements along their border. Why wouldn't they have a buffer zone if they werern't going to defend their people with the ample aid they are given?
How is this even disputed? Who else's responsibility was it to protect the Kibbutzs? They are given plenty of resources and have the man power to stop converted lawn mowers from flying across their border. They were warned of this attack over a year in advance and should be expecting it. Yet it took hours to respond to it?
More than half of Gazans were not even born or old enough to vote in the 2006 elections. Hamas won by a couple points against the PA. So a quarter of current Gazans might have voted for Hamas.CHEEZY17 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 12, 2023 1:23 pmTrying to root out and destroy Hamas IS the answer. And of course the people who support Hamas are not going to like that. There was a free and democratic election, a peaceful solution if you will, to not have Hamas in power. That failed. The Palestinian people knowingly elected Hamas and everything it stands for. They are reaping what they sowed but now its Israels fault that the people the Palestinians elected are follwing through with their known beliefs? Why cant you see the flip side of your question? Do you think murdering civilians, raping women, killing babies and taking civilian hostages "creates enemies"?burn wrote:You didn't answer my question directly but you actually did give an answer. So this collective punishment creates more enemies. Good, we can move on...
Which is why we should stay the fuck out of it.CHEEZY17 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 12, 2023 1:23 pmSo we have two entities that dont want a 2 state solution. That just leaves us back at the beginning then. I freely admit I dont have the answer. I'm not sure anyone does.burn wrote:Newsflash, the Israeli right wing government wants a 2 state solution to this conflict as much as Hamas does. They haven't operated in good faith since Rabin was assassinated by a right wing Israeli. They have been hoping for an excuse to retake Gaza since they withdrew. Which is why they supported Hamas against the PA in the first place. They want to divide the Palestinians in the WB and GS. Divide and conquer, the 1st rule of occupation.
Of course the PA is not innocent, they are politicians. Just like Israeli leadership. But they are not Islamists that "hate our freedom" which should be someone that you can work with. Unless you are a hard-core Zionist like Bibi.
Israelis bomb schools and hospitals because Hamas uses them for military operations, they bomb apartment buildings because Hamas uses their neighbors as "human shields", they bomb mosques because Hamas uses them for military operations, they bomb streets because Hamas uses them to transport weapons....do you see a pattern here. They bomb what ever they want because they can. And all they have to do is whisper Hamas.CHEEZY17 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 12, 2023 1:23 pmAt some point Hamas has to take responsibility for purposely and intentionally conducting military operations in schools or hospitals. At what point do you say THEY dont care about the Palestinian people when they callously use them in that manner? At what point do you say THEY dont care when their leaders have openly said it doesnt matter how many die in the struggle? And again, the Palestinian people voted for Hamas and all it stands for. Do your open eyes see those things?burn wrote:Again you didn't address my point. Israel cares so much about innocent Palestinians that they don't consider any of them innocent and worth saving. I don't need the UN to tell me that Israelis don't care about ordinary Palestinians. I just have to open my eyes.
When your enemy creates a military stronghold purposely under a hospital what do you suggest Israel do at that point?
So now we are the world police for Israel again?
I never claimed Hamas was trying to achieve peace, I am just pointing out that Israel is not either. I think forcing the Israelis back to a 2 state solution is much better than standing by while they blow up any chance of it ever happening. We damn sure should not be paying for it.CHEEZY17 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 12, 2023 1:23 pmEliminating any terroristic group is a benefit to Americans and the world. Again, please see the flip side to your premise: recording yourself raping and murdering civilians is not a great way to pursue peace.burn wrote:Bombing innocent civilians never defeats the enemies. It emboldens them and raises their standing with the population being bombed. See World War 2 in Germany, Iraq, Vietnam and North Korea if you need proof. Again, how does this collective punishment game of whack a mole help our interests (or Israel's)?
