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analhamster wrote: ↑Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:24 am
The fed was monetising the debt in the exceptional circumstances created by the 08 crash, now it is slowly selling off its holdings, so the opposite of what you thought was happening.
So, your saying that 2 trillion we owe the fed right now is from the 08 QE bailouts? I don't think that is right, I believe that is an additional couple trillion.
And there is a good chance as more bankruptcies from 'too big to fail businesses' happen and as more debt bubbles burst, those numbers will only increase.
Yes most of it is a result of the crash and the highly successful measures taken to induce the recovery. You would know this if you had actually read the article you pulled that graph from. The fed is now reducing its holdings, currently 2.2 trn. While on the balance sheet of the fed interest on treasuries goes straight back to the treasury as would the principal on any that mature.
Something isn't adding up.
From your link:
The total face value of U.S. Treasury securities held by the Federal Reserve.
Pretty sure all the QE bailouts included mortgage bonds and agency debt (per my chart). Though it is interesting the additional 2 trillion from mortgage and agency bonds don't seem to be mentioned in many places.
Also, these numbers going down is under the assumption there isn't another giant crisis, a debt bubble bursting, or need for massive bailouts on 'too big to fail' businesses. Maybe I am pessimistic, but I don't see it. There is speculation that bubbles in auto, student loans, and even the stock market could all go boom in the not too distant future.
We were talking about the public debt. I'm getting kinda bored with explaining things to you, there doesn't appear to be anything to discuss at this point. If you still haven't grasped why everything you thought about the fed was fundamentally wrong you aren't gonna.
Back to name calling, classic.
So Freddie, Fannie, and Ginnie are going to pay those mortgage/agency bonds?
Last I looked the Treasury Department was the one who was buying these. So, why is that not included in Public Debt?
Why don't you try looking that up? I'm bored of explaining things to you.
Tell you what, I'll tell you if you can answer this correctly-
your start position wrote:the Country as a whole borrowing Hundreds of Billions (actually now about a Trillion) a year from a private entity.
Do you now understand that you were completely wrong? It's not a private entity, and it's not the source of government borrowing. That isn't some trivial point I'm nitpicking, that's you fundamentally misunderstanding the basis of everything you were saying. Can you comprehend that?
Cassandros wrote: ↑Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:01 am
So, your saying that 2 trillion we owe the fed right now is from the 08 QE bailouts? I don't think that is right, I believe that is an additional couple trillion.
And there is a good chance as more bankruptcies from 'too big to fail businesses' happen and as more debt bubbles burst, those numbers will only increase.
Yes most of it is a result of the crash and the highly successful measures taken to induce the recovery. You would know this if you had actually read the article you pulled that graph from. The fed is now reducing its holdings, currently 2.2 trn. While on the balance sheet of the fed interest on treasuries goes straight back to the treasury as would the principal on any that mature.
Something isn't adding up.
From your link:
The total face value of U.S. Treasury securities held by the Federal Reserve.
Pretty sure all the QE bailouts included mortgage bonds and agency debt (per my chart). Though it is interesting the additional 2 trillion from mortgage and agency bonds don't seem to be mentioned in many places.
Also, these numbers going down is under the assumption there isn't another giant crisis, a debt bubble bursting, or need for massive bailouts on 'too big to fail' businesses. Maybe I am pessimistic, but I don't see it. There is speculation that bubbles in auto, student loans, and even the stock market could all go boom in the not too distant future.
We were talking about the public debt. I'm getting kinda bored with explaining things to you, there doesn't appear to be anything to discuss at this point. If you still haven't grasped why everything you thought about the fed was fundamentally wrong you aren't gonna.
Back to name calling, classic.
So Freddie, Fannie, and Ginnie are going to pay those mortgage/agency bonds?
Last I looked the Treasury Department was the one who was buying these. So, why is that not included in Public Debt?
Why don't you try looking that up? I'm bored of explaining things to you.
Tell you what, I'll tell you if you can answer this correctly-
your start position wrote:the Country as a whole borrowing Hundreds of Billions (actually now about a Trillion) a year from a private entity.
Do you now understand that you were completely wrong? It's not a private entity, and it's not the source of government borrowing. That isn't some trivial point I'm nitpicking, that's you fundamentally misunderstanding the basis of everything you were saying. Can you comprehend that?
Wrong. But not completely wrong.
We are still borrowing almost a trillion a year and that amount is only increasing; a portion (~15%) does belong to the federal reserve banks,
which are private entities, but whom follow a system controlled by a government appointed board.
My only real error is pinning the entire debt on the federal reserve, and not giving credit to the various other groups/Countries that buy our bonds.
“The society that puts equality before freedom will end up with neither, the society that puts freedom before equality will end up with a great deal of both.” --Milton Friedman
We are still borrowing almost a trillion a year and that amount is only increasing; a portion (~15%) does belong to the federal reserve banks,
which are private entities, but whom follow a system controlled by a government appointed board.
My only real error is pinning the entire debt on the federal reserve, and not giving credit to the various other groups/Countries that buy our bonds.
I really don't see any point continuing if you can't grasp this. It's not a private entity and it isn't the source of the borrowing. The treasury is borrowing almost a trillion a year by issuing treasuries, which are sold on the open market. The debt is the amount of treasuries issued, regardless of who buys them. The fed buying some on the open market or selling some on the open market does not change the debt any more than China buying or selling them does, it just changes the owner of the debt. The fed holdings actually represent a saving, since interest payments on those bonds is largely returned to the treasury when the fed remits its profits. You were completely fundamentally wrong, showing you do not understand the topic at all. This is kinda important for you to grasp since you are still attempting to pretend to lecture on it three pages later. Don't you understand how humiliating this has been for you?
We are still borrowing almost a trillion a year and that amount is only increasing; a portion (~15%) does belong to the federal reserve banks,
which are private entities, but whom follow a system controlled by a government appointed board.
My only real error is pinning the entire debt on the federal reserve, and not giving credit to the various other groups/Countries that buy our bonds.
I really don't see any point continuing if you can't grasp this. It's not a private entity and it isn't the source of the borrowing. The treasury is borrowing almost a trillion a year by issuing treasuries, which are sold on the open market. The debt is the amount of treasuries issued, regardless of who buys them. The fed buying some on the open market or selling some on the open market does not change the debt any more than China buying or selling them does, it just changes the owner of the debt. The fed holdings actually represent a saving, since interest payments on those bonds is largely returned to the treasury when the fed remits its profits. You were completely fundamentally wrong, showing you do not understand the topic at all. This is kinda important for you to grasp since you are still attempting to pretend to lecture on it three pages later. Don't you understand how humiliating this has been for you?
Again, the 9th circuit court disagrees with you.
The fed also does buy Treasuries, to expand the money supply (and selling then to contract it); to call that a savings is a disgrace. They hold 2 trillion of our debt, or is it 4 trillion? I guess we will never know since you insist the other 2 trillion isn't public debt, even though as far as I can tell it is.
Lastly, how much more will that swell when the various bubbles burst down the line? At some point the world is going to stop lending us money, then what?
I expect if you reply you will hound on some singular aspect of the post, and not any of the real issues mentioned, especially in the sentence above.
“The society that puts equality before freedom will end up with neither, the society that puts freedom before equality will end up with a great deal of both.” --Milton Friedman
Cassandros wrote: ↑Fri Feb 01, 2019 1:37 am
Again, the 9th circuit court disagrees with you.
The fed also does buy Treasuries, to expand the money supply (and selling then to contract it); to call that a savings is a disgrace. They hold 2 trillion of our debt, or is it 4 trillion? I guess we will never know since you insist the other 2 trillion isn't public debt, even though as far as I can tell it is.
Lastly, how much more will that swell when the various bubbles burst down the line? At some point the world is going to stop lending us money, then what?
I expect if you reply you will hound on some singular aspect of the post, and not any of the real issues mentioned, especially in the sentence above.
Nah, there's no point. You are now just repeating mistakes I have already explained to you while trying to lecture me on things I just taught you. Either you are too stupid to understand what I'm saying (I think that's it) or you are just determined keep repeating your mistakes until I get bored of saying the same things over and over anyway. Either way, no point. You have humiliated and exposed yourself here, if you think having the last post in the thread helps with that, go ahead.
