CHEEZY17 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 18, 2022 1:08 am
I believe the point is to make the money safe and usable. Having a million dollars in ill-gotten money doesnt mean a whole lot if you cant use it or just have it buried somewhere because youre scared to spend it. Laundering the money makes that money "clean" and usable and its understood that some will be lost via taxes etc. I suppose the benefits outweigh the negatives or money laundering wouldnt be a thing.
i think you are confused. I completely understand the point of laundering bad money to make it usable. I just don't understand how its done. Maybe you can explain it in simple terms and not catch phrases. If I gave you $1 million in drug money, how would you run that through a company and make it legal money to use?
The extent of my knowledge on this has been tapped out but let me take a shot:
My small front business wouldnt be able to handle your 1 million all at once but I would probably be able to do 120,000 of it spread out in increments of 10k per month. So the following would be done 8 or 9 more times simultaneously via other front businesses:
You give me and 10 other guys 10k in drug money every month. Every month I create multiple invoices that say I supplied at large "Consulting Services" or other dubious things. That 10K you gave us is what "paid" for those "services". That money now goes into my books as a legitimate entry because, in theory, I provided a service or product. That money now shows as profit for my business and is "clean" and ready to be returned to you. Yes, taxes may need to be paid on it at a later date but I'm sure they have ways to mitigate that as well just as all business owners try to do. I honestly dont know how accurate that is but I think thats the gist of it.
the only way for me to do that would be to spend $10,000 a month with your business in cash. You will have to figure out how to deposit the cash.
It gets deposited into the bank along with my other deposits. Its now "legit".
Wow. My bank won't let me run that kind of cash. If I get a $500 check from a homeowner, they won't even cash it. They make me deposit it and then withdraw the cash. And they track those cash withdrawals. But I don't deal in a lot of cash.
I know we have different businesses but I usually make 2 cash deposits per week.
I guess maybe think of it as a no-show job. Fat Tony pays you to put in a new driveway out in the boondocks. Youre not really putting in the driveway but you have an invoice and payment that says you did.
"When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny."
pork wrote: ↑Thu Aug 18, 2022 1:27 am
You’re discounting dirty money to make it clean. In my example I said you had pocket 500,000 out of 1 million in cash. That gives you 500 to push through a business. Let’s just say it’s ABC dollar store. Topline revenue is 500,000 those come in the form Of deposits. Assuming there’s zero other revenue we can say that 100% of the business rev comes out of that 500k. Let’s also say there is 10k a month and operating expenses that are actual. You’re paying salaries benefits leases etc. You now have 380 grand in net profit based on that P&L. You have several options at this point. First would depend on whether it’s a registered corporation or if it a schedule C business. If you claim it as a schedule C business you could create 300 grand in fake expenses to drive the tax liability to zero or next to nothing. If it’s a corporation. You could pass the revenue through as income to the shareholders or you could retain it has retained earnings and build wealth in the company illegitimately. Or you could devalue the corporation with fake losses. The issue here is that there are just too many ways to push the revenue out. Technically speaking if it’s organized crime I’m sure you’re paying for product that never show up and you’re writing those inventories off as they disappear. Lots of ways to shake it up
okay, so let's go with that example.
Now, you have to run $500,000 into that business in a year as income. How do you run any of this through a bank? No bank is going to accept even $1,000 in cash more than a few times before they shut you off and you got a visit from a bank exec. To run $500,000 a year through a company would mean $40,000 a month or $2,000 every day in cash. Even if you used 20 banks they would be onto this in less than a month. No bank would go along with it. The whole point here being that you have to make this money usable. And its not usable until its gone through a bank. Unless you use it $100 at a time.
Not sure where you bank but it’s 10k that triggers the aml. We have cash business that do more and it’s not reportable because it’s a normalcy with the type of business. However if you drop it in at a few grand a day it’s unnoticeable
JCW wrote: ↑Thu Aug 18, 2022 3:08 am
A lot of this debate could be cleared up by watching Ozark.
Saul Goodman, Esq, explained it all pretty well in that one episode of Breaking Bad.
If you can't be a good example, you can still serve as a horrible warning.
“All mushrooms are edible. Some even more than once!”
これを グーグル 翻訳に登録してくれておめでとう、バカ。
pork wrote: ↑Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:07 pm
I know a person that owns one out in Cali. It’s more of a dollar store than a party store but similarly shitty. Let’s just say he is affiliated with an organization that’s known to operate outside of the law. It’s believed that the store has similar affiliations and May only appear to be a full fledge functioning on its own business. If I had to guess I would venture that the business may exist in its entirety to support a different opportunity that the affiliation may have. It’s completely speculation as I would not have any actually knowledge of it.
I would wager there are a lot more businesses out there than people think that only exist to launder money or create cover for other opportunities. There is a mattress store down the road from me that has somehow been there for over 18 years yet never has any customers.
That sounds like a local velvet touch adult book store. Went by the other day and it's still open. I was in there about 20 years ago to apply for a job. At that time there was pretty much nothing in there.Maybe 10 magazines and a couple sex toys. While I was there filling out the application (they were looking for a cashier and exotic dancers) another guy walked in looking for work and then another guy walked in looking for work. I made a comment about how popular the place was and I said "I figured I just would apply for both positions,the cashier and the dancer".With that the cashier grabbed a baseball bat and told me it was time for me to leave.So I guess it pissed him off?I didn't argue,I just got out of there. I don't think they ever did start the dancer stuff.
i think you are confused. I completely understand the point of laundering bad money to make it usable. I just don't understand how its done. Maybe you can explain it in simple terms and not catch phrases. If I gave you $1 million in drug money, how would you run that through a company and make it legal money to use?
The extent of my knowledge on this has been tapped out but let me take a shot:
My small front business wouldnt be able to handle your 1 million all at once but I would probably be able to do 120,000 of it spread out in increments of 10k per month. So the following would be done 8 or 9 more times simultaneously via other front businesses:
You give me and 10 other guys 10k in drug money every month. Every month I create multiple invoices that say I supplied at large "Consulting Services" or other dubious things. That 10K you gave us is what "paid" for those "services". That money now goes into my books as a legitimate entry because, in theory, I provided a service or product. That money now shows as profit for my business and is "clean" and ready to be returned to you. Yes, taxes may need to be paid on it at a later date but I'm sure they have ways to mitigate that as well just as all business owners try to do. I honestly dont know how accurate that is but I think thats the gist of it.
the only way for me to do that would be to spend $10,000 a month with your business in cash. You will have to figure out how to deposit the cash.
It gets deposited into the bank along with my other deposits. Its now "legit".
Wow. My bank won't let me run that kind of cash. If I get a $500 check from a homeowner, they won't even cash it. They make me deposit it and then withdraw the cash. And they track those cash withdrawals. But I don't deal in a lot of cash.
I know we have different businesses but I usually make 2 cash deposits per week.
I guess maybe think of it as a no-show job. Fat Tony pays you to put in a new driveway out in the boondocks. Youre not really putting in the driveway but you have an invoice and payment that says you did.
I understand how that works. But in my business, unless Fat Tony pays me in cash and i put it into my pocket, it doesn't work like that. If he pays with a check, i have to deposit it in the bank and then make a cash withdrawal to get it out of the company account. Which sort of defeats the purpose. Like i have said, I can see how it works on a small scale. But if this was something done to run hundreds of thousands of dollars off the books, there are so many alarms that would be going off all over the place, that it makes it seem more dangerous than the illegal money in the first place.
pork wrote: ↑Thu Aug 18, 2022 1:27 am
You’re discounting dirty money to make it clean. In my example I said you had pocket 500,000 out of 1 million in cash. That gives you 500 to push through a business. Let’s just say it’s ABC dollar store. Topline revenue is 500,000 those come in the form Of deposits. Assuming there’s zero other revenue we can say that 100% of the business rev comes out of that 500k. Let’s also say there is 10k a month and operating expenses that are actual. You’re paying salaries benefits leases etc. You now have 380 grand in net profit based on that P&L. You have several options at this point. First would depend on whether it’s a registered corporation or if it a schedule C business. If you claim it as a schedule C business you could create 300 grand in fake expenses to drive the tax liability to zero or next to nothing. If it’s a corporation. You could pass the revenue through as income to the shareholders or you could retain it has retained earnings and build wealth in the company illegitimately. Or you could devalue the corporation with fake losses. The issue here is that there are just too many ways to push the revenue out. Technically speaking if it’s organized crime I’m sure you’re paying for product that never show up and you’re writing those inventories off as they disappear. Lots of ways to shake it up
okay, so let's go with that example.
Now, you have to run $500,000 into that business in a year as income. How do you run any of this through a bank? No bank is going to accept even $1,000 in cash more than a few times before they shut you off and you got a visit from a bank exec. To run $500,000 a year through a company would mean $40,000 a month or $2,000 every day in cash. Even if you used 20 banks they would be onto this in less than a month. No bank would go along with it. The whole point here being that you have to make this money usable. And its not usable until its gone through a bank. Unless you use it $100 at a time.
Not sure where you bank but it’s 10k that triggers the aml. We have cash business that do more and it’s not reportable because it’s a normalcy with the type of business. However if you drop it in at a few grand a day it’s unnoticeable
i would have to call bullshit on that. Even Venmo and Paypal have to report over $600 in deposits now. That $10,000 limit has been gone for years now at the banks. And I don't mean the law has lowered the $10,000 limit, i just mean the banks themselves have lowered it.
As of Jan. 1, mobile payment apps like Venmo, PayPal and Cash App are required to report commercial transactions totaling more than $600 per year to the Internal Revenue Service.
The change to the tax code was signed into law as part of the American Rescue Plan Act, the Covid-19 response bill passed in March.
Previously, these mobile payment apps only had to tell the tax authorities when a person had over 200 commercial transactions per year that exceeded $20,000 in total value, the IRS said.
Damnit! I hate to have to agree with Flumper! But he's spot on. Most financial services companies have created internal AML departments and in turn created their own detection rules - far below the IRS required $10K.
Vitamin E wrote: ↑Thu Aug 18, 2022 2:08 pm
Damnit! I hate to have to agree with Flumper! But he's spot on. Most financial services companies have created internal AML departments and in turn created their own detection rules - far below the IRS required $10K.
It’s not how it works. Trust me. I have worked for the same bank for 12 years and I am director. I can assure you that’s not how it happens. We have the same aml training 3 times a year. If it’s a familiar business that operates in cash it not a report able item. If deposit are cash and under 10k they are not reported unless they are suspicious. If you opened a business checking account and deposited 3 k in cash a day for a month it would have zero reporting. It’s a normal deposit for that know entity
Vitamin E wrote: ↑Thu Aug 18, 2022 2:08 pm
Damnit! I hate to have to agree with Flumper! But he's spot on. Most financial services companies have created internal AML departments and in turn created their own detection rules - far below the IRS required $10K.
It’s not how it works. Trust me. I have worked for the same bank for 12 years and I am director. I can assure you that’s not how it happens. We have the same aml training 3 times a year. If it’s a familiar business that operates in cash it not a report able item. If deposit are cash and under 10k they are not reported unless they are suspicious. If you opened a business checking account and deposited 3 k in cash a day for a month it would have zero reporting. It’s a normal deposit for that know entity
Well, then chalk this up to different organizations functioning differently. As a forensics consultant, I've seen plenty of financial organizations' AML detection rules. Some simplistic - some wildly complex. Regardless, they all strive to be legally defensible.
Some take into consideration the points you make - but are translated into technical detection signals for correlation. Where you say 'familiar business' the detection rule would consume the date where the business began a relationship with the organization (opened first account, merger/acquisition date, etc) where the longer the relationship, the more relaxed the detection. Inversely, new accounts are heavily scrutinized. Also included in these rules are anomalies, accounts that have trended in small transactions that begin making huge moves. This behavior triggers alerts.
Vitamin E wrote: ↑Thu Aug 18, 2022 2:08 pm
Damnit! I hate to have to agree with Flumper! But he's spot on. Most financial services companies have created internal AML departments and in turn created their own detection rules - far below the IRS required $10K.
It’s not how it works. Trust me. I have worked for the same bank for 12 years and I am director. I can assure you that’s not how it happens. We have the same aml training 3 times a year. If it’s a familiar business that operates in cash it not a report able item. If deposit are cash and under 10k they are not reported unless they are suspicious. If you opened a business checking account and deposited 3 k in cash a day for a month it would have zero reporting. It’s a normal deposit for that know entity
Well, then chalk this up to different organizations functioning differently. As a forensics consultant, I've seen plenty of financial organizations' AML detection rules. Some simplistic - some wildly complex. Regardless, they all strive to be legally defensible.
Some take into consideration the points you make - but are translated into technical detection signals for correlation. Where you say 'familiar business' the detection rule would consume the date where the business began a relationship with the organization (opened first account, merger/acquisition date, etc) where the longer the relationship, the more relaxed the detection. Inversely, new accounts are heavily scrutinized. Also included in these rules are anomalies, accounts that have trended in small transactions that begin making huge moves. This behavior triggers alerts.
That is pretty much what I have been trying to say. There are so many triggers in the banking system (and IRS), at least in my location and experience, that you would run a bigger risk getting busted for laundering money than probably whatever crime made the money in the first place.
Vitamin E wrote: ↑Thu Aug 18, 2022 2:08 pm
Damnit! I hate to have to agree with Flumper! But he's spot on. Most financial services companies have created internal AML departments and in turn created their own detection rules - far below the IRS required $10K.
It’s not how it works. Trust me. I have worked for the same bank for 12 years and I am director. I can assure you that’s not how it happens. We have the same aml training 3 times a year. If it’s a familiar business that operates in cash it not a report able item. If deposit are cash and under 10k they are not reported unless they are suspicious. If you opened a business checking account and deposited 3 k in cash a day for a month it would have zero reporting. It’s a normal deposit for that know entity
Well, then chalk this up to different organizations functioning differently. As a forensics consultant, I've seen plenty of financial organizations' AML detection rules. Some simplistic - some wildly complex. Regardless, they all strive to be legally defensible.
Some take into consideration the points you make - but are translated into technical detection signals for correlation. Where you say 'familiar business' the detection rule would consume the date where the business began a relationship with the organization (opened first account, merger/acquisition date, etc) where the longer the relationship, the more relaxed the detection. Inversely, new accounts are heavily scrutinized. Also included in these rules are anomalies, accounts that have trended in small transactions that begin making huge moves. This behavior triggers alerts.
That is pretty much what I have been trying to say. There are so many triggers in the banking system (and IRS), at least in my location and experience, that you would run a bigger risk getting busted for laundering money than probably whatever crime made the money in the first place.
I have been doing large cash deposits twice and sometimes 3 times a week for 8 years now at one of the largest banks in the Midwest. This is not unusual guys.
"When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny."
pork wrote: ↑Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:07 pm
I know a person that owns one out in Cali. It’s more of a dollar store than a party store but similarly shitty. Let’s just say he is affiliated with an organization that’s known to operate outside of the law. It’s believed that the store has similar affiliations and May only appear to be a full fledge functioning on its own business. If I had to guess I would venture that the business may exist in its entirety to support a different opportunity that the affiliation may have. It’s completely speculation as I would not have any actually knowledge of it.
I would wager there are a lot more businesses out there than people think that only exist to launder money or create cover for other opportunities. There is a mattress store down the road from me that has somehow been there for over 18 years yet never has any customers.
That sounds like a local velvet touch adult book store. Went by the other day and it's still open. I was in there about 20 years ago to apply for a job. At that time there was pretty much nothing in there.Maybe 10 magazines and a couple sex toys. While I was there filling out the application (they were looking for a cashier and exotic dancers) another guy walked in looking for work and then another guy walked in looking for work. I made a comment about how popular the place was and I said "I figured I just would apply for both positions,the cashier and the dancer".With that the cashier grabbed a baseball bat and told me it was time for me to leave.So I guess it pissed him off?I didn't argue,I just got out of there. I don't think they ever did start the dancer stuff.
